The Platform, Sean Plunket's thing

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#3402140 12-Aug-2025 18:20

sir1963:

My wife is a practice manager

Then you should ask her about Informed Consent.

Lets see what the Medical Council has to say or are they wrong?

https://www.mcnz.org.nz/assets/standards/55f15c65af/Statement-on-informed-consent.pdf

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Paul1977

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#3402144 12-Aug-2025 18:34

Rikkitic:

I suppose so. On reflection, I don't really want to do this again. I don't care if I am right or you are or someone else. There is no benefit in bashing each other like deer at rutting time. What can we agree on? I am willing to reconsider my beliefs if presented with compelling evidence. At the moment, I believe in the science. I believe that vaccination is the greatest medical breakthrough of all time. I believe it has saved countless lives. I believe that vaccinating large numbers of people also protects the unvaccinated by preventing the spread of disease. I believe, during an epidemic or pandemic, that as many people as possible should be vaccinated. I believe that vaccination can also cause harm, but the good it does vastly outweighs this. I believe people should not be forced to accept vaccination against their will, but for the sake of public health, there may have to be sanctions against those who refuse vaccination. I guess this is my starting point.

I’m not trying to bash anyone, just pointing out that these things are never as simple as people often think.

I agree with most of what you just said and I am by no means an antivaxxer. But the COVID vaccine is a little problematic for me in light of that fact that (through necessity) it didn’t have any long term trials - so the quite severe sanctions in some cases just seemed a step to far (although I didn’t think this at the time). I had the COVID vaccine during the pandemic, but honestly probably won’t get it again. But I do get the flu vaccine every year.

Anti-mandate sentiment was compounded when it became apparent that the COVID vaccine, while reducing the severity of the disease, didn’t really slow its spread. So for COVID at least, herd immunity just wasn’t achievable regardless of how high the vaccination rate got. Yet the vaccine mandates stayed in place for quite some time after this was known.

My view is of course shaped with the benefit of hindsight.

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#3402146 12-Aug-2025 18:40

Paul1977:

Anti-mandate sentiment was compounded when it became apparent that the COVID vaccine, while reducing the severity of the disease, didn’t really slow its spread. So for COVID at least, herd immunity just wasn’t achievable regardless of how high the vaccination rate got. Yet the vaccine mandates stayed in place for quite some time after this was known.

There was such a cult surrounding it I think some people just can't admit they were conned.

I didn't take the vax. I didn't wear a mask either. I was living in Auckland for part of that time and... didn't get covid until 2024.

Other no-vaxxers in my social circle had the same experience. Got it once and that was it.

Whereas most of the people I know who went along with double or triple vax and all that stuff came down with covid anyway and multiple times at that.

Lived experience and all.

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#3402148 12-Aug-2025 18:42

I think judgement is being clouded by the fact the number of dead people that we saw in Europe and America never materialised here, exactly because actions were taken.

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#3402149 12-Aug-2025 18:44

freitasm:

I think judgement is being clouded by the fact the number of dead people that we saw in Europe and America never materialised here, exactly because actions were taken.

Word on the ground is the media over played their hand there too.

Strange how every country was being told end of the world doom for somewhere else far, far, away.

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sir1963

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#3402151 12-Aug-2025 18:48

MichaelNZ:

sir1963:

My wife is a practice manager

Then you should ask her about Informed Consent.

Lets see what the Medical Council has to say or are they wrong?

ZERO patients were forced to be vaccinated, they all weighed up the risks and benefits.

Choices have consequences, and an unvaccinated staff member did represent a real risk to staff and patients

And yes a staff member refused and lost their job....consequences.

We saw in the USA the unvaccinated died at 4 times the rate of vaccinated, we also saw hospitals so overloaded they refused to care for the unvaccinated because they were less likely to survive, so based on limited resources, they made choices .

I had the benefit of talking to microbiologists, geneticists, statisticians, etc etc etc as all this was happening and the right choice was to be vaccinated. One person who was immune compromised could not go into work because of the risks to them from others, they had ZERO choice.

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#3402153 12-Aug-2025 18:49

sir1963:

There are a number of "Notifiable Diseases" that can you see you lawfully detained and put into isolation.

We have restrictions on things like drink driving, and tobacco with smoke free areas. Both are legal drugs, but for the safety of the majority of the population there are restrictions applied to the users. We do not consider their rights to be infringed upon.

There were people who had compromised immunity who were also forced to isolate, unable to feed themselves, their kids, pay the mortgage etc, because catching the disease would have killed them. Death in this case it not an inconvenience. (And yes, I had a friend who was being treated for cancer who got covid and died 3 days later).

We have (still) an under resourced healthcare system that if we did not have a large number of people vaccinated would have collapsed, those needing other medical interventions would also then have become victims along with large numbers of people with covid who could not be treated (USA experience).

We did not know enough about the disease then, but the vaccines were safe (People still die from "safe vaccines"), these techniques were developed in the 1980's and had been extensively studied.

Employers ALSO have rights and they have an obligation to ALL their staff, and from an employers perspective keeping unvaccinated people from the work place was a sound decision for both employees and customers.

My wife is a practice manager, and neither her or myself have had covid, we keep our vaccines up to date.

Isolating someone who has a known dangerous disease is quite different to sanctions against someone who might get a disease (i.e. unvaccinated). There is also a difference between not being allowed to do something and being compelled to do something.

Certainly things would have been worse if no-one got the vaccine, but I’m not sure how much of a difference in terms of health outcomes the vaccine mandates achieved. Most people would have chosen to get the vaccine any way, and there would potentially be less antivax sentiment if people hadn’t felt they were being coerced. Obviously that’s speculation on my part.

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#3402154 12-Aug-2025 18:51

sir1963:

We saw in the USA the unvaccinated died at 4 times the rate of vaccinated

The USA is "far, far, away". No doubt they were being told how bad it was in NZ. Or Timbuktu.

In regards to the stats remember that person in New Lynn who was murdered and included in the stats? How inconvenient.

Anyway I am one of those people and there are many more and we are still here much to the chagrin of the prophets of doom.

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freitasm

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#3402158 12-Aug-2025 19:03

MichaelNZ:

freitasm:

I think judgement is being clouded by the fact the number of dead people that we saw in Europe and America never materialised here, exactly because actions were taken.

Word on the ground is the media over played their hand there too.

Strange how every country was being told end of the world doom for somewhere else far, far, away.

So you deny seeing the dead bodies and reports from countries such as Italy, United States and others?

The millions of dead around d the world never happened?

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Paul1977

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#3402159 12-Aug-2025 19:04

MichaelNZ:

sir1963:

We saw in the USA the unvaccinated died at 4 times the rate of vaccinated

The USA is "far, far, away". No doubt they were being told how bad it was in NZ. Or Timbuktu.

In regards to the stats remember that person in New Lynn who was murdered and included in the stats? How inconvenient.

Anyway I am one of those people and there are many more and we are still here much to the chagrin of the prophets of doom.

The numbers I looked at from NZ at the time were pretty clear that COVID cases in ICU were proportionally significantly higher for the unvaxxed. The vaccine didn’t stop you from getting it or spreading it, but it did significantly reduce the number of severe cases and fatalities.

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#3402161 12-Aug-2025 19:06

freitasm:

So you deny seeing the dead bodies and reports from countries such as Italy, United States and others?

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#3402162 12-Aug-2025 19:07

MichaelNZ:

What does that have to do with coronavirus fatalities? I'm not making the connection here.

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#3402163 12-Aug-2025 19:07

What does this graph have to do with my argument?

Nothing.

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sir1963

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#3402164 12-Aug-2025 19:07

Paul1977:

Isolating someone who has a known dangerous disease is quite different to sanctions against someone who might get a disease (i.e. unvaccinated). There is also a difference between not being allowed to do something and being compelled to do something.

Certainly things would have been worse if no-one got the vaccine, but I’m not sure how much of a difference in terms of health outcomes the vaccine mandates achieved. Most people would have gotten the vaccine any way, and there would potentially be less antivax sentiment now if people hadn’t felt they were being coerced. Obviously that’s speculation on my part.

The number of patients who lied about testing themselves when they booked a doctors appointment was larger then you would expect.
The number of patients who were coughing their lungs out who just walked in, with no mask, ignoring signs was also non trivial

These people put staff and their families and other patients at risk with their behaviour. Staff who caught covid were off work for weeks meaning fewer patients could be seen and helped.

Consent goes both ways, you dont want to be vaccinated...go for it, but you do not get to force others to deal with you because of your choices and have their wellbeing put at risk.

1918, spanish flu, 50 to 100 million died.
because we no longer have large outbreaks of diseases like smallpox, measles, mumps, Polio , etc people no longer know the horror caused to families both through illness and the loss of the wage earner from the house, so poverty was prevalent too.

Curious, have you ever handled a dead person, I have, it was someone I knew, it was when I was doing volunteer Ambulance duties in a small community. I also got to see drunk drivers more worried about their vehicle being smashed than their mate who never got to walk again.

Paul1977

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#3402168 12-Aug-2025 19:18

sir1963:

The number of patients who lied about testing themselves when they booked a doctors appointment was larger then you would expect.
The number of patients who were coughing their lungs out who just walked in, with no mask, ignoring signs was also non trivial

These people put staff and their families and other patients at risk with their behaviour. Staff who caught covid were off work for weeks meaning fewer patients could be seen and helped.

Consent goes both ways, you dont want to be vaccinated...go for it, but you do not get to force others to deal with you because of your choices and have their wellbeing put at risk.

1918, spanish flu, 50 to 100 million died.
because we no longer have large outbreaks of diseases like smallpox, measles, mumps, Polio , etc people no longer know the horror caused to families both through illness and the loss of the wage earner from the house, so poverty was prevalent too.

Curious, have you ever handled a dead person, I have, it was someone I knew, it was when I was doing volunteer Ambulance duties in a small community. I also got to see drunk drivers more worried about their vehicle being smashed than their mate who never got to walk again.

Not sure what you mean by “handled” a dead person. I’ve seen dead people, and have been with a close family member as they died. But I’m not sure what relevance that has to this discussion?

I’m not arguing against the benefit vaccines. I’m just questioning the severity of the consequences of the mandates for those who didn’t comply.

We have gotten well off the original topic, which was more around people turning to alt media because of a growing distrust of mainstream media. But it’s morphed into a rehash of discussions/arguments from several years ago.

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