'Something rotten in the state of Denmark'

To post in this sub-forum you must have made 100 posts or have Trust status or have completed our ID Verification

Forums › Politics › 'Something rotten in the state of Denmark'

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5

11927 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 9683

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#3004430 2-Dec-2022 08:10

GV27:
Rikkitic:

According to your logic, women should not have been given the vote and neither should black people in America. Both of these movements and many other worthy causes began with actions on that 'same continuum'.

And in those cases, I'm sure plenty of people were prepared to go to jail for what they believed in.

The issue I see here is that people think the thing they believe in means they should be above criminal consequences.

Yip. If you act in a criminal way about abortion or climate change you wear the consequences.

The courts don’t get to judge your moral compass, merely whether you were legally entitled to do what you did.

Rikkitic

Awrrr
19071 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 16318

Lifetime subscriber

#3004433 2-Dec-2022 08:17

Handle9:

Where did I talk about whether any particular cause was worthy? Please show me this particular comment?

What does that have to do with it? You are just trying to obfuscate the issue. I merely pointed out that some protests of yesterday have become the laws of today. You are trying to claim that all disruptive protests are equal. I say they are not.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

Rikkitic

Awrrr
19071 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 16318

Lifetime subscriber

#3004439 2-Dec-2022 08:26

Handle9:

Yip. If you act in a criminal way about abortion or climate change you wear the consequences.

The courts don’t get to judge your moral compass, merely whether you were legally entitled to do what you did.

I do not believe protesters are above the law. I do believe the law is sometimes an ass and sometimes 'illegal' protest is the only way to challenge it. I am not saying that is the case here. I am simply pointing out the principle.

The court of law is one thing. The court of public opinion is another. During the civil rights protests, people were horribly beaten by the law for daring to cross a bridge. The law was vicious and unjust. As a direct result of the protests, it got changed. Another law that got changed is apartheid in South Africa. There is a place in society for civil disobedience.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

GV27

5977 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4212

#3004440 2-Dec-2022 08:27

Rikkitic:

What does that have to do with it? You are just trying to obfuscate the issue. I merely pointed out that some protests of yesterday have become the laws of today. You are trying to claim that all disruptive protests are equal. I say they are not.

Because that's literally the issue at hand.

The courts do not rule whether being a climate punisher is a noble act, they rule on whether you broke a law.

Rikkitic

Awrrr
19071 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 16318

Lifetime subscriber

#3004446 2-Dec-2022 08:42

I'm trying to remember what this discussion is about. I think it started here:

rb99: They might sometimes bugger things up for some people, but at least they get off their assets and do something, unlike me. And being jailed for the sin of inconveniencing people is just wrong.

Handle9:I take it from this statement that you feel the people who occupied the New Zealand parliament grounds also should have no consequences for their actions?

Me: You are taking conflation to a whole new level here.

The argument seems to be that all acts of protest should be treated exactly the same by the law. I disagree. Not all protests are equal. The law doesn't think so either. Arguing with a police officer on the street is not treated the same as burning down the police station. Clearing out the protesters from Parliament on the first day they gathered would have been heavy-handed overkill. By the first week it would have been justified. By the time it happened it had overwhelming public support. These things are not the same.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

GV27

5977 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4212

#3004454 2-Dec-2022 09:08

Rikkitic:

The argument seems to be that all acts of protest should be treated exactly the same by the law. I disagree. Not all protests are equal. The law doesn't think so either. Arguing with a police officer on the street is not treated the same as burning down the police station.

Hang on, arguing with a police officer in a way that doesn't breach the peace is not a crime. Arson is.

No one is saying all protests are the same. The point here is that the fact you're protesting isn't a sanctimony shield from the consequences of what you do in the process of protesting.

Geekzone support

Support Geekzone with one-off or recurring donations Donate via PressPatron.

Rikkitic

Awrrr
19071 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 16318

Lifetime subscriber

#3004464 2-Dec-2022 09:17

GV27:

No one is saying all protests are the same. The point here is that the fact you're protesting isn't a sanctimony shield from the consequences of what you do in the process of protesting.

Agree. My disagreement was equating the Parliament occupation with blocking traffic.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

GV27

5977 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4212

#3004466 2-Dec-2022 09:21

Rikkitic:

Agree. My disagreement was equating the Parliament occupation with blocking traffic.

No, I don't think you can equate those two. Maybe before Jan 6th, but not anymore.

gzt

18689 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 7827

Lifetime subscriber

#3004617 2-Dec-2022 12:10

Handle9: It’s on the same continuum though. I’d expect the stuff that happened at parliament to get comparatively more severe sentences than people blocking a motorway.

Just to be clear, the protestors did not block the motorway. Photos of the same or similar protest below:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11397893/Just-Stop-Oil-spark-rush-hour-chaos-activist-scales-motorway-gantry-M25.html

In NZ I'm fairly sure the police would have kept an eye on them until some convenient time in the early morning and started removal at that time.

SJB

2945 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2287
Inactive user

#3004630 2-Dec-2022 12:40

The police had to take the action they did and stop the traffic. How did they know that the protester wasn't going to start dropping objects onto the motorway (eg nails) to stop the traffic or he wasn't a complete nutter and was going to try to commit suicide for his cause?

If that had happened and the protester or a motorist had been killed the police would have been heavily criticized.

And I come back to the fact the guy already had a suspended sentence. The judge probably had little choice but to imprison him. It may have even been stipulated in the official sentencing guidelines.

Handle9

11927 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 9683

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#3004747 2-Dec-2022 16:35

Rikkitic:
GV27:

No one is saying all protests are the same. The point here is that the fact you're protesting isn't a sanctimony shield from the consequences of what you do in the process of protesting.

Agree. My disagreement was equating the Parliament occupation with blocking traffic.

Of course I never said they were equal. I said they existed on the same continuum which is quite different. They were both illegal protests so are both subject to the consequences of their actions.

Samsung

Shop now on Samsung phones, tablets, TVs and more (affiliate link).

gzt

18689 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 7827

Lifetime subscriber

#3004825 2-Dec-2022 17:36

SJB: The police had to take the action they did and stop the traffic. How did they know that the protester wasn't going to start dropping objects onto the motorway (eg nails) to stop the traffic or he wasn't a complete nutter and was going to try to commit suicide for his cause?

The reporting is pretty clear the police stopped the motorway to remove the protestors. Not for any other reason.

gzt

18689 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 7827

Lifetime subscriber

#3004831 2-Dec-2022 17:56

Police arrested several journalists covering the protests:

https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/10/media/uk-journalist-arrests-climate-protest/index.html

SJB

2945 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2287
Inactive user

#3004836 2-Dec-2022 18:22

gzt:
SJB: The police had to take the action they did and stop the traffic. How did they know that the protester wasn't going to start dropping objects onto the motorway (eg nails) to stop the traffic or he wasn't a complete nutter and was going to try to commit suicide for his cause?

The reporting is pretty clear the police stopped the motorway to remove the protestors. Not for any other reason.

Yes, they had to remove him in case he started dropping objects onto the motorway including himself. They couldn't just leave him there and they couldn't remove him safely while the traffic was moving.

BTW The motorway in question is the London orbital motorway and is busy 24 hours a day.

gzt

18689 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 7827

Lifetime subscriber

#3004837 2-Dec-2022 18:27

SJB: Yes, they had to remove him in case he started dropping objects onto the motorway including himself.

Like you say the police knew exactly who and what they were dealing with the whole time. Nothing like that was on the cards.

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5