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freitasm
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  #2619160 10-Dec-2020 09:20
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neb: Interesting commentary on Brexit from the Guardian:

 

 

There is one Brexit deal. There has only ever been one. It has been there from the start, although hard to see through the fog. Its outline has been discernible behind plumes of rhetoric and misinformation billowing out from the Westminster political machine. It was there on the horizon the morning after the referendum. It has not moved during the thousands of hours of debate that followed. The deal was already contained in article 50. It was in every bill in every late-night Commons vote. It was in Theresa May’s backstop and Boris Johnson’s alternative. It is the hard kernel of a soft Brexit and the soft underbelly of a hard one. It is the capital of Norwegian, Canadian and Australian-style Brexits.

 

It is this: the UK will give up wealth in exchange for sovereignty. In what proportions and over what timescale is the only real subject of negotiation. Whether that exchange should be made at all is the essential difference between leavers and remainers. The scenario we now call “no deal” is a way of describing the highest price for the largest portion of sovereignty.

 

 

 

And reality is "sovereignty" is this context is the ability to block "foreigners" from coming into the country. At the end of the day it was born out some racist person's mind and spread like Trumpism's America First - almost like a "Make Britain Great Again".

 

Now you read of older, retired people who supported invoking article 50 and are surprised they can't freely go enjoy their holiday retirement home in Spain as freely as before.





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  #2619177 10-Dec-2020 09:27
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freitasm:

 

Now you read of older, retired people who supported invoking article 50 and are surprised they can't freely go enjoy their holiday retirement home in Spain as freely as before.

 

 

 

 

Sadly, their tears of rage will not in fact nourish the young people whose future they've squandered. :-/





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  #2619400 10-Dec-2020 13:08
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Can someone point out where "Project Fear" and "Remoaners" got things wrong?

 

I assume Boris is going to come home with a last minute crappy deal - that he'll try to get re-written as a great victory - the EU capitulating to the Great Leader's demands in desperation.

 

Then there's the original "Project Fear".  IIRC recent polls indicate that Scotland would now vote for independence from the UK with a large majority.  Then we'd have to change the NZ flag.

 

 




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  #2619425 10-Dec-2020 13:36
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Fred99:

 

Then there's the original "Project Fear".  IIRC recent polls indicate that Scotland would now vote for independence from the UK with a large majority.  Then we'd have to change the NZ flag.

 

 

How about we vote for independence and do it then? 

 

 





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  #2619473 10-Dec-2020 14:10
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Fred99:

Then we'd have to change the NZ flag.

 

 

Laser Kiwi FTW!

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  #2620025 11-Dec-2020 11:13
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Rikkitic:

 

Fred99:

 

Then there's the original "Project Fear".  IIRC recent polls indicate that Scotland would now vote for independence from the UK with a large majority.  Then we'd have to change the NZ flag.

 

 

How about we vote for independence and do it then? 

 

 

We're not a dominion anymore so I'm not sure what we'd be voting to be independent of? 


 
 
 
 

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  #2620045 11-Dec-2020 11:31
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GV27:

 

We're not a dominion anymore so I'm not sure what we'd be voting to be independent of? 

 

 

We may not be a dominion but we still are expected to swear fealty to an old lady on the other side of the world.

 

 

 

Edited to add:

 

God save our gracious Queen,
Long live our noble Queen,
God save The Queen.
Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us:
God save The Queen.

 

 

 

 





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freitasm
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  #2620137 11-Dec-2020 14:24
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Rikkitic:

 

GV27:

 

We're not a dominion anymore so I'm not sure what we'd be voting to be independent of? 

 

 

We may not be a dominion but we still are expected to swear fealty to an old lady on the other side of the world.

 

Edited to add:

 

God save our gracious Queen,
Long live our noble Queen,
God save The Queen.
Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us:
God save The Queen.

 

 

Her title is Elizabeth II, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, New Zealand and Her Other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith. She's the Queen of a completely independent country, that happens to be Queen of other countries too.

 

This doesn't mean New Zealand is not independent from the UK.





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  #2620139 11-Dec-2020 14:30
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Actually let's say the Queen's relationship to New Zealand is complex: "she reigns, while the government rules."

https://nzhistory.govt.nz/politics/queen-elizabeths-diamond-jubilee/constitutional-roles

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  #2620258 11-Dec-2020 19:02
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freitasm:

 

And reality is "sovereignty" is this context is the ability to block "foreigners" from coming into the country. At the end of the day it was born out some racist person's mind and spread like Trumpism's America First - almost like a "Make Britain Great Again".

 

Now you read of older, retired people who supported invoking article 50 and are surprised they can't freely go enjoy their holiday retirement home in Spain as freely as before.

 

 

That's one version but not true entirely. Freedom of movement in the EU is a problem for a lot of the more prosperous member states.

 

There is certainly a racist element within the Brexit group but there's a whole lot more to consider than just a bunch of racists. There is a case for the EU being grossly undemocratic.


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  #2620260 11-Dec-2020 19:10
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Handle9:

 

There is certainly a racist element within the Brexit group but there's a whole lot more to consider than just a bunch of racists. There is a case for the EU being grossly undemocratic.

 

 

How do you define 'undemocratic'? I am from the EU and I never experienced it that way.

 

 





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Handle9
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  #2620261 11-Dec-2020 19:24
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The legislative agenda sits almost entirely with the European commission, which is appointed, rather than the elected parliament.

There's any number of other issues with the EU as a democratic body which you can read about very easily.

Rikkitic
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  #2620312 11-Dec-2020 19:55
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Those are old stories. As an armchair critic you can sniff at it if you wish. Living there as a citizen gives a perspective you apparently don't have.

 

 

 

 





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  #2620315 11-Dec-2020 20:04
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Rikkitic:

Those are old stories. As an armchair critic you can sniff at it if you wish. Living there as a citizen gives a perspective you apparently don't have.


 


 



I don't have any particular opinion on it and couldn't care less. It has been raised when I have talked to a number of British people on why they voted to leave. Your perspective is far from universal in Europe.

Rikkitic
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  #2620320 11-Dec-2020 20:48
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I have lived most of my life in Europe (Holland) and Britain. My perspective comes from that experience. 

 

I think if you talked to a number of British people today, they would probably regret their decision to leave.

 

 

 

 





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