UK prime minister Boris Johnson

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#2621507 14-Dec-2020 20:20

Depends how you calculate it. The real purpose of some of that spending is to expand market growth sometimes by funding basic infrastructure in member countries that don't have it. How much present and future GDP was dependent on that. Another way to calculate it - how much will UK lose with the exit? Aka Boris Johnson's ahem "better deal".

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#2621533 14-Dec-2020 20:53

shk292:

One aspect of this debate that I can never understand is that a whole bunch of kiwis thought that TPPA was a complete travesty and loss of sovereignty for NZ, and a whole bunch of kiwis (which I think overlap significantly) seem to think that Brexit is a complete travesty for the UK. But Brexit seeks to undo the equivalent of TPPA on steroids for the UK.

I think it is wrong to conflate TPPA concerns with Brexit.

Personally, I didn't like the idea of a bunch of American corporate lawyers acting as judge and jury in any TPPA trade disagreement.

The EU were also negotiating a trade agreement with the US at the time and they were concerned too.

However, the EU were smart enough to demand independent arbitration.

Rikkitic

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#2621536 14-Dec-2020 21:13

shk292:

I don't think it's ever been argued that UK is a net beneficiary. Here are the numbers, so now you know:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48256318

UK net contribution a bit over 7B Euros. Not as much per capita as the Netherlands but still significant

I'm not sure why you are making such an issue of this. As I thought I made clear, I qualified my assertion when I made it. I don't 'know' that the UK has received more than it has paid and that is not what I said. I said I think it has.

Why do I think that? Because a simple comparison of money in money out does not give the true picture. The actual value exchanged is a lot more complicated and almost impossible to quantify. Perhaps I could have phrased it better. I think the UK has benefited more from the EU than it realises or appreciates, and I think this will become increasingly apparent after Brexit is finalised. Maybe these articles help explain it.

https://encompass-europe.com/comment/how-much-does-britain-really-pay-into-the-eu-budget
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/articles/theukcontributiontotheeubudget/2017-10-31

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#2624810 21-Dec-2020 09:33

Handle9:

freitasm:

And reality is "sovereignty" is this context is the ability to block "foreigners" from coming into the country. At the end of the day it was born out some racist person's mind and spread like Trumpism's America First - almost like a "Make Britain Great Again".

Now you read of older, retired people who supported invoking article 50 and are surprised they can't freely go enjoy their holiday retirement home in Spain as freely as before.

That's one version but not true entirely. Freedom of movement in the EU is a problem for a lot of the more prosperous member states.

There is certainly a racist element within the Brexit group but there's a whole lot more to consider than just a bunch of racists. There is a case for the EU being grossly undemocratic.

'Grossly' is overstating the 'undemocratic ' case if its the legislative agenda you're thinking of. I don't think lack of democracy is a motivating factor for English Brexit voters. After all, they seem happy with an unelected head of state and even their parliament has an an unelected upper house !

Not only are the members of this house unelected, some of them are there just because of the family they belong to or because they are religious leaders ! To add to the undemocractic them this house is named the 'house of lords' which does not emphasise how all people are the same.

It wasn't a lack of EU democracy that led to Brexit.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

gzt

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#2625074 21-Dec-2020 18:40

The first innovation from Johnson's Britain - a new Covid mutation. Conservative party is in a spiral of stupidity and the next election is not until May 2025. This is not a good situation.

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#2625374 22-Dec-2020 10:32

gzt:

the next election is not until May 2025. This is not a good situation.

That's if BJ will last the distance and/or there won't be a snap election called.

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#2625521 22-Dec-2020 15:43

Fred99:
gzt:

the next election is not until May 2025. This is not a good situation.

That's if BJ will last the distance and/or there won't be a snap election called.

Good point. With Covid-NG and Brexit hitting hard at the same time I can see a vote of no confidence at some point. The counterpoint is who would want to take over that mess?

SJB

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#2625562 22-Dec-2020 16:27

That's ridiculous - he has an 80 seat majority. Who would support such a motion?

neb

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#2625565 22-Dec-2020 16:35

SJB:
That's ridiculous - he has an 80 seat majority. Who would support such a motion?

His own backbenchers?

SJB

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#2625590 22-Dec-2020 18:01

neb:
SJB:

That's ridiculous - he has an 80 seat majority. Who would support such a motion?

His own backbenchers?

No. They would bring down their own government and maybe lose their jobs in an election where Labour would probably make some gains. I don't think so.

He could personally be unseated by his Cabinet but that would need a credible replacement and just result in a leadership election.

One thing to point out about the pandemic measures in the UK. The devolved parliaments of Scotland, Wales and NI are responsible for local measures. BJ and Westminster are only responsible for England.

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#2625610 22-Dec-2020 19:12

SJB

Exactly. Bad situation. It can easily continue all the way to 2025. Hope those vaccines are effective in reducing transmission because Johnson's government isn't.

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#2626541 24-Dec-2020 20:05

According to the guardian UK is about to announce a deal on brexit

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#2626583 24-Dec-2020 22:25

Batman: According to the guardian UK is about to announce a deal on brexit

It's 2000 pages long, apparently.

Regardless - expect experts from both sides to offer wildly divergent "expert analysis" within minutes of any deal being signed.

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#2626643 25-Dec-2020 09:40

Fred99:

Batman: According to the guardian UK is about to announce a deal on brexit

It's 2000 pages long, apparently.

Regardless - expect experts from both sides to offer wildly divergent "expert analysis" within minutes of any deal being signed.

Politics - the only game in the world where both sides always win.

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#2626715 25-Dec-2020 16:08

And the rich. Except the working class and the poor - they always lose.

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