Ukraine War discussion

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#2907849 28-Apr-2022 11:37

Valeriya Novodvorskaya on Putin: "He is a monster" From 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9Pop4xXo3Q&t=267s

This is the Russian poet Valeriya Novodvorskaya in 2014, addressing separatists in Ukraine about Putin. Her words have great relevance again in our time.

"Dear Donbas militants, separatists, terrorists, and all the other unimaginable things that history decides to call you:

I’m a Russian. I’m not calling from Kyiv, I’m calling from Moscow. And it seems as of yet no one has told you the truth about what fate awaits you, and what kind of bargaining chip you are for Moscow.

My dear ones, in the name of what are you preparing to die? We can’t understand it here. For what are you planning to die and for whom?
You should understand already that Putin doesn’t need Donbas. He doesn’t need you. He needs a black hole.
Understand, the problem is that you have nothing worth dying for. You say you are fighting for Donbas. Donbas as part of what? There isn’t and cannot be a country by the name of Donbas. You should understand by now that you can’t live on your own, because Putin simply won’t allow you to live alone because he doesn’t need your independence, even if you try to get it. He needs a border to push his MPADS and weapons through and attack Ukraine so that they won’t know one day of peace, so that war will be constant, and so that Ukraine won’t be able to make reforms.
And you, you are just cannon fodder. You are just a means to create war.
I hope that you know who Putin is?
He is a monster, a Stalinist, his desire is that no one will live a normal life. He needs an empire, an empire of evil, because empires and good never go together. And for the sake of monstrous ambitions you want to die for this heir of Hitler and Stalin. This makes no sense. I don’t understand you.
In Russia today, everything is very bad. I’m not sure if we will make it out. There are too few of us, and too many who want to create an empire, and for them, you are just a doormat.
As for your adversaries, young people and not so young from the Ukrainian army, from the national guard, who you for some reason consider to be fascists-- it’s clear what they are willing to die for. You know what, it’s not even for the integrity of Ukraine. That’s not the point.
They are fighting so that their country will survive under the name of Ukraine, so that it may break away from our cursed, pathetic, vicious Russia. I’m talking to you as someone born into this Russia: I know what is happening here. It’s so they can at least eat something, get dressed up, leave for Europe and live just as quietly, peacefully, and happily as Europeans. As you should already understand, there is no fascism planned there.
---
Valeriya Novodvorskaya lived till she was 64 years old. She continuously fought against the USSR regime and for this received more than one sentence; she also stood up against the restriction of rights and freedoms in modern-day Russia and the rollout of imperial politics by the Kremlin. Valeriya Novodvorskaya was called the conscience of the nation."

kingdragonfly

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#2907861 28-Apr-2022 11:54

Handsomedan: I find it interesting that part of the justification of the invasion by Russia was the "encirclement" of Russia by NATO if Ukraine were to join.

Putin is a psychopath, and the war is unjustified

... but Putin's not incorrect that NATO purpose seems to be defense against Russia.

I was going to concede his worry about nuclear bombs on his doorstep, since 60 years ago, in the Cuban Missile Crisis, WW III was close at hand for a "encirclement" reason.

However given that there are now so many ways a nuke could be deliver in under 30 minutes, it's a moot point.

Regarding "encirclement" NATO will never launch a ground force attack against Russia. A foreign force occupying the vast territories is impossible. There would never be enough NATO soldiers.

freitasm

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#2907874 28-Apr-2022 12:29

kingdragonfly: Putin is a psychopath, and the war is unjustified

... but Putin's not incorrect that NATO purpose seems to be defense against Russia.

And thanks for that. Imagine if there was no NATO, what this crazy would try. So yes, defence is all good. What's his problem with that?

Sideface

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#2907950 28-Apr-2022 16:17

Some more sabre-rattling from Putin today ...

The Guardian - Putin warns of ‘lightning fast’ retaliation if West interferes in Ukraine

today

In an address to lawmakers in St Petersburg earlier today, Vladimir Putin warned any countries attempting to interfere in Ukraine would be met with a “lightning-fast” response from Moscow.

The Russian president said the West wanted to cut Russia up into different pieces and accused it of pushing Ukraine into conflict with Russia, adding:

"If someone intends to intervene into the ongoing events (in Ukraine) from the outside and creates unacceptable strategic threats for us, then they should know that our response to those strikes will be swift, lightning fast."

Russian troops would not hesitate to use the most modern weaponry, Putin said:

"We have all the tools for this - ones that no one can brag about. And we won’t brag. We will use them if needed. And I want everyone to know this. We have already taken all the decisions on this."

EDIT

also from The Guardian:

The rouble soared to a more than two-year high against the euro in Moscow trade on Wednesday, Reuters reports.

Russia halted gas supplies to Bulgaria and Poland for rejecting its demand for payment in roubles on Wednesday.

By 2:18pm GMT, the rouble had gained 1.8% to trade at 75.43 versus the euro, its strongest since early March 2020.

It was 1.1% stronger against the dollar at 72.75 .

Crime does sometimes pay. 😕

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tdgeek

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#2907990 28-Apr-2022 17:36

Crap artist. His own country folded, blame them. He feels he can destroy what he wants then whine when others defend. He complains about NATO, this is a classic example why NATO exists, to protect against rogues

In other news Germany is finally going hard, supplying weapons. Poland and Bulgaria will be without black gas, thats ok, they can and are dealing with it. This 3 week takeover has turned into a decades long shutdown of Russia

You get what you pay for

neb

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#2907993 28-Apr-2022 17:43

Sideface:
Crime does sometimes pay. 😕

It's not going to pay, the Russian central bank has done everything possible to prop up the rouble and avert its collapse, but it's all short-term plastering over the cracks. Like wage and price freezes to cover up inflation, it's an artificial condition that can't last, and that makes the collapse that follows all the worse.

tdgeek

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#2907996 28-Apr-2022 17:50

neb:
Sideface:

Crime does sometimes pay. 😕

It's not going to pay, the Russian central bank has done everything possible to prop up the rouble and avert its collapse, but it's all short-term plastering over the cracks. Like wage and price freezes to cover up inflation, it's an artificial condition that can't last, and that makes the collapse that follows all the worse.

The restrictions, sanctions, the doubling down against Russia is now long term. Maybe Putin thinks he can destroy everything, get castigated then get all this removed by being nice for a day, like PRNK

Aint happening.

kingdragonfly

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#2907998 28-Apr-2022 17:52

I wonder how many rubles it costs in Moscow to buy an Adidas track suit?

neb

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#2908000 28-Apr-2022 17:56

kingdragonfly: I wonder how many rubles it costs in Moscow to buy an Adidas track suit?

Meh, that guy in the middle is just a wannabe gopnik, he's not even squatting properly.

K8Toledo

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#2908009 28-Apr-2022 18:44

kingdragonfly:
Handsomedan: I find it interesting that part of the justification of the invasion by Russia was the "encirclement" of Russia by NATO if Ukraine were to join.

Putin is a psychopath, and the war is unjustified

... but Putin's not incorrect that NATO purpose seems to be defense against Russia.

I was going to concede his worry about nuclear bombs on his doorstep, since 60 years ago, in the Cuban Missile Crisis, WW III was close at hand for a "encirclement" reason.

However given that there are now so many ways a nuke could be deliver in under 30 minutes, it's a moot point.

Regarding "encirclement" NATO will never launch a ground force attack against Russia. A foreign force occupying the vast territories is impossible. There would never be enough NATO soldiers.

The NATO alliance is defensive only.

NATO was formed at the end of WWII specifically to counter the threat from USSR of an invasion of Western Europe through West Germany.

There has been some debate over whether or not NATO antagonized Russia by expanding eastward.

K8Toledo

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#2908068 28-Apr-2022 22:53

K8Toledo:

NATO was formed at the end of WWII specifically to counter the threat from USSR of an invasion of Western Europe. ~~through West Germany.~~

^^Should be:

rugrat

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#2908083 29-Apr-2022 02:37

Looks like a win for Putin, Gas companies are caving in to the Roubles payment demand, paying in euros to a Russian bank and then being converted to roubles.

”One of Germany's biggest energy firms has said it is preparing to buy Russian gas using a payment system that critics say will undermine EU sanctions.”

”Other European energy firms are reportedly preparing to do the same amid concerns about supply cuts.”

Looks like confusion over weather breaches sanctions but looks possible a lot of gas companies in the EU will be in breach of sanctions. Will action be done against them if they are?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61257846.amp

K8Toledo

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#2908084 29-Apr-2022 03:02

rugrat:

Looks like a win for Putin, Gas companies are caving in to the Roubles payment demand, paying in euros to a Russian bank and then being converted to roubles.

”One of Germany's biggest energy firms has said it is preparing to buy Russian gas using a payment system that critics say will undermine EU sanctions.”

”Other European energy firms are reportedly preparing to do the same amid concerns about supply cuts.”

Looks like confusion over weather breaches sanctions but looks possible a lot of gas companies in the EU will be in breach of sanctions. Will action be done against them if they are?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61257846.amp

Ursula von der Leyen speech, video from the NYT:

E.U. Warns That Paying for Russian Gas in Rubles Violates Sanctions

Edit-

Nothing mentioned so looks like no action will be taken;

From the Times again:

The European Commission president, Ursula von der Leyen, said on Wednesday that payments in rubles, as Mr. Putin has demanded, would be an outright sanctions violation.

She said the E.U. would support Poland and Bulgaria to quickly replace the lost gas supply, and declared that “the era of Russian fossil fuels in Europe is coming to an end.”

But many countries would prefer that end come at a time of their choosing.

Poland and Bulgaria had paid for their Gazprom contracts in euros as they had in the past, declining the request for rubles and forgoing the alternative mechanism through a new Gazprombank account, officials from both countries said. Their money was sent back, and Gazprom summarily cut off their supply.

To avoid a similar fate, Hungary’s foreign minister, Péter Szijjártó, said in a Facebook post on Wednesday that his country was opting to set up a new account with Gazprombank and to allow the Russian bank to perform ruble conversions.

“We’ve managed to find a solution,” he wrote.

K8Toledo

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#2908085 29-Apr-2022 03:59

Fears are mounting that the war in Ukraine will spill across its borders.

WASHINGTON — For nine weeks, President Biden and the Western allies have emphasized the need to keep the war for Ukraine inside Ukraine.

Now, the fear in Washington and European capitals is that the conflict may soon escalate into a wider war — spreading to neighboring states, to cyberspace and to NATO countries suddenly facing a Russian cutoff of gas.

In the past three days, the American secretary of defense has called for an effort to degrade the capability of the Russian military so that it could not invade another country for years to come. The Russians have cut off gas shipments to Poland and Bulgaria, which joined the North Atlantic Treaty Organization after the collapse of the Soviet Union; Ursula von der Leyen, the president of the European Commission, immediately denounced the move as an “instrument of blackmail.”

And with increasing frequency, the Russians are reminding the world of the size and power of their nuclear arsenal, an unsubtle warning that if President Vladimir V. Putin’s conventional forces face any more humiliating losses, he has other options.

“Nobody wants to see this war escalate any more than it already has,” John Kirby, the Pentagon spokesman, said on Wednesday when asked about Russia’s nuclear threats. “Certainly nobody wants to see, or nobody should want to see, it escalate into the nuclear realm.”

American and European officials say their fears are based in part on the growing conviction that the conflict could “go on for some time,” as Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken put it recently.

Talk of a diplomatic resolution or even a cease-fire — attempted at various points by the leaders of France, Israel and Turkey, among others — has died out.

At the same time, American and European determination to help Ukraine defeat the Russians has hardened, partly after the atrocities in Bucha and other towns occupied by the Russians became clear, with even Germany overcoming its initial objections and sending artillery and armored vehicles.

Seth G. Jones, who directs the European Security Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, said on Wednesday that “the risk of a widening war is serious right now. Russian casualties are continuing to mount, and the U.S. is committed to shipping more powerful weapons that are causing those casualties,”

When Gazprom, the Russian energy giant, cut off the flow to Poland and Bulgaria, it was clearly a warning sign that Germany — hugely dependent on Russian gas — could be next.

Russia was using its most potent economic weapon, sending a message that it could bring pain and, next winter, considerable cold to Eastern and Western Europe without firing a shot. American officials said it was clearly an effort to fragment the NATO allies, who have so far remained united.

Some Europeans wondered whether Washington’s war aims had broadened from helping Ukraine to defend itself, which has broad support, to damaging Russia itself…

NYT - (some content removed)

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#2908205 29-Apr-2022 11:15

The New York Times - Congress Clears Bill to Allow Lending Arms to Ukraine

breaking

WASHINGTON - The House on Thursday overwhelmingly passed legislation that would allow President Biden to use a World War II-era law to quickly supply weapons to Ukraine on loan, sending the measure to Mr. Biden’s desk hours after he urged Congress to approve tens of billions of dollars’ worth of additional emergency aid for Kyiv.

The 417-to-10 vote to invoke an extraordinary, eight-decade-old law created to battle Hitler reflected a growing bipartisan sense of urgency in Congress to bolster the Ukrainian military as it digs in for an ugly and protracted artillery war in the south and east of the country. ...

The legislation invokes the Lend-Lease Act of 1941, originally proposed by President Franklin D. Roosevelt to help arm British forces battling Germany.

The legislation allowed the president to lease or lend military equipment to any foreign government “whose defense the president deems vital to the defense of the United States.”

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