Gareth Morgan's new political party

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#1665006 7-Nov-2016 14:02

Having another minnow party in politics won't change much. It will be status quo or a little worse.

But, if TOP becomes a medium sized, centrist party, things could get interesting ...

The greens are a catch-22 for labour. Labour needs a partner but the greens are a little toxic. They repel a chunk of centrist voters and don't participate in governments - despite averaging 8% of the party vote.

Imagine if TOP gets 8% of the vote. Suddenly there is a medium sized pragmatist, centrist party for labour to partner with.

Mike

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#1665028 7-Nov-2016 14:27

MikeAqua:

Imagine if TOP gets 8% of the vote. Suddenly there is a medium sized pragmatist, centrist party for labour to partner with.

I can't actually see that happening. To give an example, Labour just announced a cornerstone policy on Youth Unemployment - to get them "working" planting trees and cleaning up riverbanks IIRC, paying them minimum (presumably youth) wages. Sound good superficially, but there are already schemes like Youth Guarantee, supposedly to get disengaged youth back into some form of training/education, actually a more noble concept than training them to pick up litter. But I'd wager that if you could find a way to extract stats, you'll find that it's a bit of an abject failure. There are some success stories, but many so completely disengaged youth who won't engage in training, and you could yell and scream and hold a gun to their heads, they probably won't pick up litter either. We are on the wrong path there.

The problems are going to require more fundamental change if they're ever going to be solved, we're treating it with the usual ambulance at the bottom of the cliff approach (or closing eyes and pretending it isn't there) I'd hope that Morgan's suggestions are a little more creative. There's a lot of knee-jerk reaction to him which in my opinion is very wrong, he's an inspirational thinker "outside the square". Argue against what he says, but condemning him for who he is is IMO a very dumb thing to do.

Lots of fundamental issues like that, hate to use the term but a "paradigm shift" is needed, in the way we invest for the future - in everything. Morgan's world as I see it, has very little in common with Labour's vision.

MikeAqua

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#1665085 7-Nov-2016 15:28

Fred99:

MikeAqua:

Imagine if TOP gets 8% of the vote. Suddenly there is a medium sized pragmatist, centrist party for labour to partner with.

I can't actually see that happening.

I can't see it happening immediately. But remember the greens were circling the drain on 5% or 6% for several elections. They have only hit double digits in the last two.

I think Morgan's policies will have wider appeal than the greens. The question is whether they will be different enough from the other parties?

I sometimes think the greens have survived because they are so different and because they have never had to govern.

Smaller parties in coalitions tend to lose votes.

Mike

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#1665096 7-Nov-2016 15:42

I have found the older I grow the more I find politicians liars and attention seekers. Most aren't interested in actually helping ordinary citizens and just want to help their circle of friends by doing shady deals.

Is GM going to be our equivalent of Trump? I wonder if he wants to build a wall and talks down to women?

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#1665139 7-Nov-2016 16:07

BTR:

I have found the older I grow the more I find politicians liars and attention seekers. Most aren't interested in actually helping ordinary citizens and just want to help their circle of friends by doing shady deals.

Is GM going to be our equivalent of Trump? I wonder if he wants to build a wall and talks down to women?

He has mentioned his similarity to Trump....which immediately makes him a bottom feeder imo.

Rikkitic

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#1665141 7-Nov-2016 16:08

I also feel fairly cynical about politicians but I don't know what the alternative is. If we don't use the means available to us to exercise what influence we can (i.e., voting, maybe petitions and public protests), then what else can we do other than start a revolution? On the basis of historical examples, I don't find that very appealing either.

We could certainly use some serious reform, though finding a majority to support it might be difficult. I would like to see the end of all political parties and the introduction of STV for all elections. I don't mind political clubs because it is natural for people with similar ideas to seek each other out but actual parties with official status and a recognised place in the system should be disallowed. This only leads to back room deals, power plays, patronage, corruption, and practically every other bad thing associated with politics as an institution. Parties are unneeded and unnecessary. They do much more harm than good.

A truly unpolitical civil service is a good and necessary thing, because the bureaucrats are the ones who actually run things. There should be ministries in charge of them, as is currently the case, and the ministers should be directly elected by the people. They could then choose a leader to coordinate things that transcend ministerial boundaries. There should be a limit on the number of terms they can serve. A titular head of state could be chosen by other means. There would have to be a lot more than this to a functioning system, but something like this is the direction I would like to see us go. Not that it will ever happen while the life-long politicians cling tightly to their perks.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

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MikeB4

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#1665145 7-Nov-2016 16:12

Because the majority votes in those you don't like does not make the system broken.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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#1665206 7-Nov-2016 16:53

Fred99:

To give an example, Labour just announced a cornerstone policy on Youth Unemployment - to get them "working" planting trees and cleaning up riverbanks IIRC, paying them minimum (presumably youth) wages.

Good example, and I agree that fundamental change is needed. Labour thinks that the "propping up employment" bandaid will appease the masses enough to let the Establishment carry on as before. That's why I think that *Labour* would be the big loser if TOP succeeds. I expect more bread-and-circuses and trickle-down economics from them; different, bigger appeasements than National offers, but no real change. National with a red logo.

MikeAqua

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#1665598 8-Nov-2016 11:04

I think an issue with the current system is the shortness of the terms. 3 years isn't long enough to recover from unpopular but unnecessary decisions. When was the last time a government in New Zealand made a widely unpopular but necessary decision?

Mike

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#1665635 8-Nov-2016 12:00

MikeAqua:

I think an issue with the current system is the shortness of the terms. 3 years isn't long enough to recover from unpopular but unnecessary decisions. When was the last time a government in New Zealand made a widely unpopular but necessary decision?

I agree. A 3 year term is too short to get anything useful done. 5 years is better - also cheaper, as less elections to run.

BlueShift

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#1665692 8-Nov-2016 13:05

MikeAqua:

I think an issue with the current system is the shortness of the terms. 3 years isn't long enough to recover from unpopular but unnecessary decisions. When was the last time a government in New Zealand made a widely unpopular but necessary decision?

Don't know about necessary, but the asset sales and flag referendum, despite being comprehensively spelled out pre-election, went down like a cup of cold sick with the electorate.

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#1665708 8-Nov-2016 13:18

BlueShift:

MikeAqua:

I think an issue with the current system is the shortness of the terms. 3 years isn't long enough to recover from unpopular but unnecessary decisions. When was the last time a government in New Zealand made a widely unpopular but necessary decision?

Don't know about necessary, but the asset sales and flag referendum, despite being comprehensively spelled out pre-election, went down like a cup of cold sick with the electorate.

It's actually remarkable how many of the policies implemented over the past two terms, when polled, have been apparently quite unpopular, but implemented anyway with virtually no impact on popularity of the PM. The GST increase/tax cuts, TPPA negotiations WRT patent extensions in particular, reducing immigration numbers. Here's an example on "housing" to dispel counter opinion that all criticism is "from the left" - 2/3 of Nat voters don't think govt was doing enough.

Key is either the luckiest cunningest dear leader we've ever had, has the lamest opposition, or (probably) both.

MikeB4

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#1665715 8-Nov-2016 13:33

What do people expect the Government to do about the Housing?

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

MikeAqua

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#1665718 8-Nov-2016 13:37

BlueShift:

MikeAqua:

I think an issue with the current system is the shortness of the terms. 3 years isn't long enough to recover from unpopular but unnecessary decisions. When was the last time a government in New Zealand made a widely unpopular but necessary decision?

Don't know about necessary, but the asset sales and flag referendum, despite being comprehensively spelled out pre-election, went down like a cup of cold sick with the electorate.

Those are in a different league to what I am thinking about - Rogernomics, Mother of all Budgets, the first few big Treaty Settlements. Really fundamental decisions that (for better or worse) changed the country. I sometimes think Bolger/Richardson were the last NZ politicians to make a really tough call.

Perhaps Clark got close with the seabed and foreshore issue.

These days if you tried to make a tough decision you would drown in Twit-Rage.

Mike

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#1665731 8-Nov-2016 13:53

MikeB4:

What do people expect the Government to do about the Housing?

There is always a large part of society that expects "the government" to solve everything as if being elected somehow transforms you into some sort of magician and John Key will leap, Gandalf-like, into Auckland, slam his Staff of Power into the ground and utter "Melenkurion abatha, Duroc minas mil. Harad khabaal." which will instantly paper the land with free houses on half acre plots with flat screen TV's in every room and a pool in the back garden....

(PS Bonus points for being able to identify the quoted words...!)

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