Ukraine War discussion

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#2914343 15-May-2022 22:40

kingdragonfly: "Commonly considered to be one of the world's deadliest tanks, the T90 battle tank is the crown jewel of Russia's military vehicles. Capable of firing different types of ammunition, it is able to take out armored vehicles from over 5km's away and can travel up to 60km/h. But with more than 19 of these tanks already having been lost during Russia's war with Ukraine, the fault in it's design might be that it simply wasn't meant for urban warfare."

That's... not much of a conclusion, cities have always been a graveyard for tanks, the only time you ever take armour into a city is when it's supported by massive amounts of infantry to suppress the defenders, look at city battles in WWII for numerous examples. And losing only 19 T90s against the best NATO anti-tank weapons and/or in bad-for-tanks urban environments shows how impressive it is when the Russians have lost ~700 other tanks and thousands of other vehicles but only 19 T90s. So I'd draw the opposite conclusion from the above, or at least not the conclusion that the T90 is no good.

Sideface

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#2914370 16-May-2022 09:15

BBC World Service - Ukraine war: Sweden and Finland confirm Nato plans

16 May

Sweden and Finland have confirmed they will apply for NATO membership in a historic shift that comes as a result of Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

Sweden stayed neutral in World War II and for more than two centuries has avoided joining military alliances.

Finland shares a 1,300-km (810-mile) border with Russia. Until now, it has stayed out of NATO to avoid antagonising its eastern neighbour. ...

EDIT

BBC World Service - Turkey's Nato objections

17 May

For Finland and Sweden to join NATO, all 30 existing members must say yes. But for now, one is saying no.

President Erdogan says he won’t agree to admit countries which apply sanctions on Turkey.

Sweden suspended arms sales to Turkey three years ago, following Ankara’s military intervention in Syria.

And according to the official Turkish news agency, both Finland and Sweden have rejected dozens of requests to extradite Kurdish militants who Turkey describes as terrorists.

Both countries are sending delegations to Ankara to try and solve the problem, but President Erdogan says they shouldn’t bother.

He seems determined to extract a price for his precious vote. ...

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ezbee

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#2914554 16-May-2022 14:01

Surprised to see this from a former PRC official
Risking social credit points I guess ?
Apparently based on talk given at a closed session of Chinese Academy of Social Sciences

https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1525025508064370689

""
Gao Yusheng, former PRC Ambassador to the Ukraine: “The Russian military’s economic and financial strength, which are not commensurate with its status as a so-called military superpower, could not support a high-tech war. The Russian army’s poverty-driven defeat was evident”
""

Oh it was taken down a matter of hours after it went up ?
https://gaodawei.wordpress.com/2022/05/10/fmr-prc-amb-to-ukraine-on-russias-impending-defeat-and-international-relations/

CCP can view things through a Mao lens that strength comes from end of gun.
Of course if you are not monstering your neighbors you do not need enough military strength to conquer others.
With a creative open society you may also have a society where you don't need to steal others stuff.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10781737/Putins-Holodomor-Russia-steals-400-000-tonnes-grain-occupied-Ukraine.html
Along with toilets, whiteware, and even old CRT TVs !?

Russia however may want to watch its back if it bleads its military dry given the friends it has.
Who will be a client state of who ?
China does have potential claims on Russian territory,
https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/explained-why-160-year-old-vladivostok-has-a-chinese-connection-6493278/

elpenguino

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#2914715 16-May-2022 20:05

neb:
kingdragonfly: "Commonly considered to be one of the world's deadliest tanks, the T90 battle tank is the crown jewel of Russia's military vehicles. Capable of firing different types of ammunition, it is able to take out armored vehicles from over 5km's away and can travel up to 60km/h. But with more than 19 of these tanks already having been lost during Russia's war with Ukraine, the fault in it's design might be that it simply wasn't meant for urban warfare."
That's... not much of a conclusion, cities have always been a graveyard for tanks, the only time you ever take armour into a city is when it's supported by massive amounts of infantry to suppress the defenders, look at city battles in WWII for numerous examples. And losing only 19 T90s against the best NATO anti-tank weapons and/or in bad-for-tanks urban environments shows how impressive it is when the Russians have lost ~700 other tanks and thousands of other vehicles but only 19 T90s. So I'd draw the opposite conclusion from the above, or at least not the conclusion that the T90 is no good.

We need more data. If Russia has only deployed 19 T90s in Ukraine then things are not encouraging.

According to the web, Russia has 750-1000 of them but are 3/4 of them still in Russia waiting for parts ?

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

1101

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#2914854 17-May-2022 09:56

elpenguino:

We need more data. If Russia has only deployed 19 T90s in Ukraine then things are not encouraging.

According to the web, Russia has 750-1000 of them but are 3/4 of them still in Russia waiting for parts ?

Just how good the T90 is must be speculation . Russia wont be telling everyone the true capability & true vulnerabilty of their newest gear .

And since Russia wants overseas sales of its tanks, would they risk showing how vulnerable it is by sending hundreds into the battle & risk export orders ?
Are Russia saving its best & most advanced military tech , rather than risk it in an urban warfare environment ?

It seems Russia are sending in alot of old tech , is that all they want to risk losing or all they have to spare ?

SaltyNZ

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#2914876 17-May-2022 10:42

1101:

Just how good the T90 is must be speculation . Russia wont be telling everyone the true capability & true vulnerabilty of their newest gear .

And since Russia wants overseas sales of its tanks, would they risk showing how vulnerable it is by sending hundreds into the battle & risk export orders ?
Are Russia saving its best & most advanced military tech , rather than risk it in an urban warfare environment ?

It seems Russia are sending in alot of old tech , is that all they want to risk losing or all they have to spare ?

I don't think Russia's going to be making many overseas tank sales for a while. They're going to find it hard enough to build any for themselves with the current crop of sanctions.

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These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

ezbee

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#2914955 17-May-2022 11:20

Apparently India is committed to something like $10-$20B of Russian weapons long term.
Egypt, Syria, and a list of others.

Some have said Russia's Military Industrial Complex is aimed at export $$$.
Product that is good enough and importantly the right price, its a high margin business for Russia.
Having few industries outside of primary products, Oil, Gas, Minerals, Forestry and some Diamonds.

Of course they come with modern French IR sights, Thales targeting systems. Thanks France !
Ukraine has found Italian infantry night vision systems in abandoned equipment.
Russia's air defense and smarter munitions would be nothing without this and German technology too.

The west sharpened the bears claws while it was mauling Ukraine, and now we have this.

Still its not always what you have, or the scale of it, sometimes its how you use it. Hopefully.

A video on a 2 year old captured T80 called bunny.
One day you are a software engineer, then you are on a sniper team,
next you capture a tank and become tank commander.
https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2022/05/11/ukrainian-army-volunteer-tank-bunny-pkg-kiley-ovn-intl-ldn-vpx.cnn

Apparently latest is that Putin is now personally directing forces down to low detailed level
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/ur6crd/putin_making_military_decisions_in_donbas_western/

SaltyNZ

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#2914960 17-May-2022 11:24

ezbee:

Of course they come with modern French IR sights, Thales targeting systems. Thanks France !
Ukraine has found Italian infantry night vision systems in abandoned equipment.
Russia's air defense and smarter munitions would be nothing without this and German technology too.

Well, as I said: western companies aren't going to be selling them targeting systems or even dual-use semiconductors or other components, for a long time. And the combat performance on display has been less than stellar, too, so not great advertising.

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neb

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#2914962 17-May-2022 11:29

ezbee:
Apparently latest is that Putin is now personally directing forces down to low detailed level
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/ur6crd/putin_making_military_decisions_in_donbas_western/

He saw how well it worked for Hitler and decided to have a go himself... Assuming the reports are actually true that is.

More seriously, it shows how bad things are when the generalissimo himself is meddling in low level details that should be the domain of field commanders standing outside their tanks holding maps and talking on cellphones.

Edited to add: I'm just waiting for the appearance of Downfall film clip edits spoofing this...

kingdragonfly

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#2915051 17-May-2022 13:03

Many dishwashers have tanks. In Russia, tanks have dishwashers.

Business Insider: Russia is resorting to putting computer chips from dishwashers and refrigerators in tanks due to US sanctions, official says

Russia is having to use computer chips intended for home appliances to repair its military hardware due to the impact of US sanctions, according to a US official.

"We have reports from Ukrainians that when they find Russian military equipment on the ground, it's filled with semiconductors that they took out of dishwashers and refrigerators," commerce secretary Gina Raimondo told the Senate Committee on Appropriations on Wednesday.

Raimondo recently met with Ukrainian officials who told her that they found parts from refrigerators and commercial and industrial machines when searching captured or abandoned Russian tanks, The Washington Post reported.
...

K8Toledo

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#2915231 17-May-2022 16:26

neb:
kingdragonfly: "Commonly considered to be one of the world's deadliest tanks, the T90 battle tank is the crown jewel of Russia's military vehicles. Capable of firing different types of ammunition, it is able to take out armored vehicles from over 5km's away and can travel up to 60km/h. But with more than 19 of these tanks already having been lost during Russia's war with Ukraine, the fault in it's design might be that it simply wasn't meant for urban warfare."
That's... not much of a conclusion, cities have always been a graveyard for tanks, the only time you ever take armour into a city is when it's supported by massive amounts of infantry to suppress the defenders, look at city battles in WWII for numerous examples. And losing only 19 T90s against the best NATO anti-tank weapons and/or in bad-for-tanks urban environments shows how impressive it is when the Russians have lost ~700 other tanks and thousands of other vehicles but only 19 T90s. So I'd draw the opposite conclusion from the above, or at least not the conclusion that the T90 is no good.

Going by viewer comments the consensus is that the video contains many factual errors...

The T-90: Russia's Main Battletank (And its Failure in Ukraine)

And when I read this...

"the fault in it's design might be that it simply wasn't meant for urban warfare. "

wellygary

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#2915237 17-May-2022 16:56

SaltyNZ:

ezbee:

Of course they come with modern French IR sights, Thales targeting systems. Thanks France !
Ukraine has found Italian infantry night vision systems in abandoned equipment.
Russia's air defense and smarter munitions would be nothing without this and German technology too.

Well, as I said: western companies aren't going to be selling them targeting systems or even dual-use semiconductors or other components, for a long time. And the combat performance on display has been less than stellar, too, so not great advertising.

Russian military equipment has long been full of western parts...

Here's a drone being "unboxed" [after being shot down] by the Ukrainians,

K8Toledo

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#2915248 17-May-2022 17:57

neb: He saw how well it worked for Hitler and decided to have a go himself... Assuming the reports are actually true that is.

More seriously, it shows how bad things are when the generalissimo himself is meddling in low level details that should be the domain of field commanders standing outside their tanks holding maps and talking on cellphones.

Edited to add: I'm just waiting for the appearance of Downfall film clip edits spoofing this...

Appears to be largely speculative... original source.

Although if true, could Putin do worse than his commanders? :)

Ukraine decimated Russian forces trying to cross a river in the east, Britain’s defense ministry says.

The destruction wreaked on a Russian battalion as it tried to cross a river in northeastern Ukraine last week is emerging as among the deadliest engagements of the war, with estimates based on publicly available evidence now suggesting that well over 400 Russian soldiers were killed or wounded.

And as the scale of what happened comes into sharper focus, the disaster appears to be breaking through the Kremlin’s tightly controlled information bubble.

Perhaps most striking, the Russian battlefield failure is resonating with a stable of pro-Russian war bloggers — some of whom are embedded with troops on the front line — who have reliably posted to the social network Telegram with claims of Russian success and Ukrainian cowardice.

“The commentary by these widely read milbloggers may fuel burgeoning doubts in Russia about Russia’s prospects in this war and the competence of Russia’s military leaders,” the Institute for the Study of War, a Washington-based research body, wrote over the weekend.

On May 11, the Russian command reportedly sent about 550 troops of the 74th Motorized Rifle Brigade of the 41st Combined Arms Army to cross the Donets River at Bilohorivka, in the eastern Luhansk region, in a bid to encircle Ukrainian forces near Rubizhne.

Satellite images reveal that Ukrainian artillery destroyed several Russian pontoon bridges and laid waste to a tight concentration of Russian troops and equipment around the river.

The Institute for the Study of War, citing analyses based on the publicly available imagery, indicated that there could have been as many as 485 Russian soldiers killed or wounded and more than 80 pieces of equipment destroyed.

As the news of the losses at the river crossing in Bilohorivka started to spread, some Russian bloggers did not appear to hold back in their criticism of what they said was incompetent leadership.

“I’ve been keeping quiet for a long time,” Yuri Podolyaka, a war blogger with 2.1 million followers on Telegram, said in a video posted on Friday, saying that he had avoided criticizing the Russian military until now.

“The last straw that overwhelmed my patience was the events around Bilohorivka, where due to stupidity — I emphasize, because of the stupidity of the Russian command — at least one battalion tactical group was burned, possibly two.”

Mr. Podolyaka ridiculed the Kremlin line that the war is going “according to plan.” He told his viewers in a five-minute video that,

A tally of Russian losses from the infamous failed Russian Siverskyi Donets river crossing near Bilohorivka.
In total 73 Russian equipment were destroyed/abandoned, including a BTG worth of AFVs.

Another popular blogger, who goes by Starshe Eddy on Telegram, wrote that the fact that commanders left so much of their force exposed amounted to “not idiocy, but direct sabotage.”

And a third, Vladlen Tatarski, posted that Russia’s eastern offensive was moving slowly not just because of a lack of surveillance drones but also “these generals” and their tactics.

“Until we get the last name of the military genius who laid down a B.T.G. by the river and he answers for it publicly, we won’t have had any military reforms,” Mr. Tatarski wrote.

Western military analysts have also pored over the imagery and say the attempted crossing demonstrated a stunning lack of tactical sense.

They have speculated that Russian commanders, desperate to make progress, rushed the operation. Some also suggested that it was a reflection of disorder in the Russian ranks.

If the estimates that hundreds of soldiers were killed or injured prove accurate, it would be one of the deadliest known engagements of the war.

Source -NYT

kingdragonfly

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#2915347 17-May-2022 22:35

Some might object that this trivializes the war, perhaps in an attempt at morbid humour, If you ignore the first three minutes, it's an OK video.

Javelin vs NLAW - Which is the anti-tank king?

Binkov's Battlegrounds

The Javelin and the NLAW are two of the hottest anti tank systems around right now. At least the media seems to be pitting them one against the other.

Most of the articles written so far have been about two anti-tank systems. So… Our video tries to answer how do they compare? Are they even competitors? Which one is better? And just how suitable are they for the job at hand?

neb

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#2915362 18-May-2022 00:54

neb: Edited to add: I'm just waiting for the appearance of Downfall film clip edits spoofing this...

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