Home ownership...surely it's not a right, but a privilege?

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Forums › Politics › Home ownership...surely it's not a right, but a privilege?

Handsomedan

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#242232 17-Oct-2018 09:55

reading this article in Stuff (yes, I know) about a lady that earns next-to-nothing and says, "But Tollemache doesn't think her limited means should exclude her from one day owning a home in some sense..."

Sally Army Says More Options Needed for Home Ownership

My question is this...is home ownership really a right?

I don't think the rest of society should subsidise home ownership for the less well-off. It's just a fact of life that sometimes you can't have what you want.

I've owned (well - the bank has owned) my home for 18 years + and while I'd love to move into something newer/bigger/better, I understand that my income allows me to have an OK lifestyle with the size of the mortgage that I have, so I stay put, with my family. We don't have insulated walls, we have only relatively recently had a heat-pump installed and the insulation in the ceiling and underfloor was only put in around 7-8 years ago.

I agree that a warm, dry home is a right. But home ownership? No. not in my opinion.

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#2109415 17-Oct-2018 10:15

Exactly where in that story is anybody claiming that home ownership is a right?

You seem to be attempting to erect a straw-man when the real issue is about access to decent housing which undoubtedly is a right.

eph

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#2109422 17-Oct-2018 10:19

I believe one of the human rights (the UN universal declaration of human rights) is:

The right to an adequate standard of living

It certainly doesn't say anything about owning a property. Also it doesn't seem to be included in the NZ version (1990 Rights Act).

No idea who is supposed to guarantee it and how. I'm alway really confused about these economic rights because somebody has to provide for it. What about other basic needs - not to go hungry or thirsty, be able to breath clean air or use a toilet. Surely they are more important than a home but they don't seem to be human rights...

Handsomedan

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#2109428 17-Oct-2018 10:25

jpoc:

Exactly where in that story is anybody claiming that home ownership is a right?

You seem to be attempting to erect a straw-man when the real issue is about access to decent housing which undoubtedly is a right.

Read the bit where she says that despite her limited means, she believes she should be able to own a home one day...

Not trying to create anything, other than discussion. But thanks for the input.

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Fred99

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#2109506 17-Oct-2018 10:46

I read this bit:

What Tollemache would like to do – and hopes to see become more normalised – is eventually buy a section of land with a group of other like-minded folk, then build tiny houses and communal areas as a model for affordable home ownership.

Fairly modest expectations, I'd have thought.

I do think that governments should have set policy to favour home-ownership by all rather than encourage residential property as an "investment" to return profit. That's resulted in a massive drop in home ownership in NZ. The counter-argument that ~ 50% of people "don't want to own a home and prefer to rent" is abject BS. Some do choose to rent of course, taxpayers will be paying their rent for them when they retire / go on the pension, as they're hardly likely to have the means to buy their first home at 65, and at this stage of the capitalist cycle, there's still some resistance to throwing people out to live in the streets.

alasta

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#2109507 17-Oct-2018 10:46

I would say a dignified retirement is a right, but as someone who has done really well out of investing in managed funds rather than housing I don't think you need to own a house to achieve that.

Unfortunately the rental market has become so dysfunctional in recent years that people feel that they have to buy a house even though it may not make financial sense in their particular situation.

Paul1977

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#2109528 17-Oct-2018 10:57

I think as a society we need to help those that need it, which means ensuring that people have a safe and healthy place to live. However, as far as actually owning that place - that is a privilege that I believe needs to be earned.

eph

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#2109533 17-Oct-2018 10:59

alasta:

I would say a dignified retirement is a right, but as someone who has done really well out of investing in managed funds rather than housing I don't think you need to own a house to achieve that.

Unfortunately the rental market has become so dysfunctional in recent years that people feel that they have to buy a house even though it may not make financial sense in their particular situation.

What if you don't deserve a dignified retirement? If you just spent all your money your whole life never owning/saving anything you'll be better off in retirement than a person who worked hard, saved hard and maybe been able to save up to buy a small house. The irresponsible first will get all the government support (since he's poor and got nothing) but the responsible second one will get none (because he's got a house so must be rich)...

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MikeAqua

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#2109535 17-Oct-2018 11:00

I don't think ownership of anything is a right. Government should provide a basic safety net for people so they have nourishment, shelter, medical care and access to education.

Govt provides most of this in the form of cash payments and medical care and education are free or subsidised.

Three things have gone wrong IMO: -

1) The cost of housing has outstripped govt payments - this has happened because supply has been constrained and cost have been increased by well-intentioned government policy (building act, RMA, regional plans, safety regs).

2) The proportion of the population that is financially supported by the state to some extent has increased - students, super-annuitants, beneficiaries, working for families. This adds up to shed-load of people who are net tax takers.

3) Base erosion. Govts have less revenue because of (2) and because of companies shifting profits to countries with lower tax rates.

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MikeB4

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#2109548 17-Oct-2018 11:09

Article 17 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights states.....

"(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property."

Article 25 (1)of the UN Declaration of Human Rights states.....

"(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control."

MileHighKiwi

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#2109552 17-Oct-2018 11:16

I don’t think it’s a right. Owning a house is hard work. Saving the deposit is just the start. Our first home sprung a leak in the roof about 6 months after we moved in, it cost $1,600 to repair. We didn’t have much money at the time and it cleaned out our savings acct. In the past I’d call the landlord, now it’s all my responsibility.

My wife’s cousin thought she ‘deserved’ to own a home (her words), so her dad gifted her $100K for a deposit and was guarantor on the mortgage. 6 years on he’s paying all the bills because she can’t afford it, she works 15 hours per week and her dropkick partner can’t hold down a job longer than a week. Washing machine breaks down? Call dad. Car? Call dad. School uniform? dad. These people are not suited to home ownership, they don’t have two cents to rub together.

The woman in this story looks 100X more responsible than said cousin, but they have a low income in common. If I were in her shoes, now her daughter is 5, I'd go to uni/polytech and up-skill so she can re-enter the workforce and build a future for her family. Owning a home is just not realistic otherwise.

Handsomedan

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#2109553 17-Oct-2018 11:17

MikeB4:

Article 17 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights states.....

"(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property."

I'd doubt said "property" actually means real estate. I'd say it means personal property - as in "things".

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Paul1977

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#2109558 17-Oct-2018 11:19

MikeB4:

Article 17 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights states.....

"(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property."

Article 25 (1)of the UN Declaration of Human Rights states.....

"(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control."

Semantics at play here I think. I read and understand that more as saying 'Everyone has the right to be allowed to own property', which I agree with.

SpartanVXL

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#2109560 17-Oct-2018 11:20

As people have pointed out, you can live in a home but not necessarily own the property.

The problem I see is the way in which having a place to call home is being monetized. Whether it be rentals or mortgages, its getting to a point where if people are having to spend a majority of their life income just to keep a place to stay.

Far too much thinking in society around profits and financial gain and not enough around doing it right. It's like putting a price on water or air, you're putting a pricetag on something that is a part of living and almost never ends well.

I really wish NZ got its act together around infrastructure and housing planning. Profits shouldn't be a part of it and any money should be put right back in to get better quality/service. I've got far too many mates in construction who tell me how builds are made for best profit, use material that only lasts 5 years because it looks fine and will be sold off anyway.

Fred99

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#2109565 17-Oct-2018 11:26

MikeB4:

Article 17 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights states.....

"(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property."

That's not really relevant to the subject of this thread.

Everybody does have the right in NZ - it's not saying that everybody must have the property provided. That's not referring to "property" as specifically housing or land, nor specifically obliging a signatory to even allow private land/home ownership.

Edit - oops - should have refreshed my browser view before hitting the send button - that's already been answered several times above.

MikeB4

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#2109594 17-Oct-2018 11:45

it depends on what spin you put on the word property and if you link that to article 25. I am not adding anthing to it I have simply quoted the stated rights, others are adding to the words.

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