Isnt This Racist?

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tdgeek

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#259820 23-Oct-2019 20:51

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/116823574/arranged-marriages-caught-up-in-immigration-policy-changes

Short story is people from India can get married in an arranged marriage. NZF sees that as not a marriage.

Seems racist to me. When in Rome... So when they want to immigrate to NZ they aren't wanted as not really married. What BS

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#2342667 23-Oct-2019 21:05

As I understand it - their visa were not denied because they are Indians but because their partnership definition is not compatible with the NZ immigration laws. I don't understand what's racist about it as it's not about specific race (arranged marriages are used in other countries as well).

From what I heard the laws got much tougher recently and even long term partners got difficulties to get visas.

MikeB4

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#2342668 23-Oct-2019 21:06

Absolutely and not out of character for NZF they have always been racist.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Rikkitic

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#2342671 23-Oct-2019 21:07

Yes, it is clearly racist. I don't agree with the notion of arranged marriage but I do understand what cultural differences mean. NZ First MPs need to get over themselves. Just because they are too blinkered to understand that different cultures have different values does not give them the right to ride roughshod over those differences.

Apart from that, someone ought to point out to them who spends 12 hours or more a day 7 days a week operating all the dairies and liquor outlets, never mind the market gardeners, increasingly Indian, who supply our veggie stands and the expert IT people who help keep our industries going. I support our government but that does not extend to NZ First, which is a boil on the coalition that badly needs to be lanced. It is my hope, though not my expectation, that enough voters see what has been going on to give Labour and the Greens a clear majority next time around so they can finally govern without the NZ First millstone around their necks.

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Fred99

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#2342684 23-Oct-2019 21:30

eph:

As I understand it - their visa were not denied because they are Indians but because their partnership definition is not compatible with the NZ immigration laws.

Yup. I tend to agree with you - if there's moral outrage against this as race-based discrimination, that should be drowned out by moral outrage against arranged marriage.

We take pride (I hope) on being a liberal society - and arranged marriage isn't a liberal concept and is repulsive on multiple levels. One notable level is caste, you'd almost certainly never be matched with someone from the wrong caste (or religion!) so it's hypocritical to suggest that we should be exceptionally tolerant of extreme intolerance because of "culture".

MikeB4

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#2342693 23-Oct-2019 21:43

yeah, the colonial overlords know best

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Rikkitic

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#2342707 23-Oct-2019 22:00

White man's burden. We have to eddicate them brownies and teach 'em about the missionary position and church on Sundays. Can't have no heathen practices here!

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JWR

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#2342719 23-Oct-2019 23:15

I dislike this being characterized as racist. There is no context where racism is acceptable. So, I see it as an attempt to bypass any rational discussion.

I don't believe it is racist. The rules apply to any New Zealander, regardless of race. I am pretty sure I don't have the right to travel, marry a woman, and automatically expect to bring her back to New Zealand.

However, it does reflect a cultural bias.

That is something that could be argued about.

I do think there are cases where cultural bias is acceptable. We don't allow female genital mutilation (although we allow it for males), we don't execute people for apostasy etc..

I think I would need to know more about the subject before I had any firm ideas on it.

gzt

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#2342721 23-Oct-2019 23:26

Fred99:
eph:

As I understand it - their visa were not denied because they are Indians but because their partnership definition is not compatible with the NZ immigration laws.

Yup. I tend to agree with you - if there's moral outrage against this as race-based discrimination, that should be drowned out by moral outrage against arranged marriage.

We take pride (I hope) on being a liberal society - and arranged marriage isn't a liberal concept and is repulsive on multiple levels. One notable level is caste, you'd almost certainly never be matched with someone from the wrong caste (or religion!) so it's hypocritical to suggest that we should be exceptionally tolerant of extreme intolerance because of "culture".

Much of this anti-arranged marriage outrage is misplaced on several levels. Many cultures see marriage as a stage of life and ways to get there. Many arranged marriages these days are mutually arranged. The Indian subcontinent is not the only place in the world with arranged marriages.

Rikkitic

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#2342722 23-Oct-2019 23:53

On a more serious note, if the prospective bride is not underage and the groom has no other wives, no New Zealand law is being broken and the manner in which the couple have been brought together is no-one else's business. Once the new wife is a New Zealand resident, she has the same rights as every other New Zealand woman and can become part of the culture here if she wishes and assert her independence as an emancipated woman. The point being, it is her choice and her business. She doesn't need well-meaning busybodies deciding what is right for her.

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tdgeek

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#2342739 24-Oct-2019 07:19

JWR:

I dislike this being characterized as racist. There is no context where racism is acceptable. So, I see it as an attempt to bypass any rational discussion.

I don't believe it is racist. The rules apply to any New Zealander, regardless of race. I am pretty sure I don't have the right to travel, marry a woman, and automatically expect to bring her back to New Zealand.

However, it does reflect a cultural bias.

That is something that could be argued about.

I do think there are cases where cultural bias is acceptable. We don't allow female genital mutilation (although we allow it for males), we don't execute people for apostasy etc..

I think I would need to know more about the subject before I had any firm ideas on it.

Cultural bias, that's the issue.In this case its racism.

Immigration NZ figures showed 10 out of 87 applications for culturally-arranged marriage visas had been approved as of the end of August.

In the previous four years more than half of all applications were accepted.

This shows that the Coaliltion, and before that, National, understand the cultural difference and make allowances. The marriage is legtimate. When NZF argue against precedent and "I would just say to the activists from the Indian community, tame down your rhetoric, you have no legitimate expectations in my view to bring your whole village to New Zealand and if you don't like it and you're threatening to go home - catch the next flight home."

Fred99

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#2342831 24-Oct-2019 10:02

tdgeek:

Cultural bias, that's the issue.In this case its racism.

Immigration NZ figures showed 10 out of 87 applications for culturally-arranged marriage visas had been approved as of the end of August.

In the previous four years more than half of all applications were accepted.

This shows that the Coaliltion, and before that, National, understand the cultural difference and make allowances. The marriage is legtimate. When NZF argue against precedent and "I would just say to the activists from the Indian community, tame down your rhetoric, you have no legitimate expectations in my view to bring your whole village to New Zealand and if you don't like it and you're threatening to go home - catch the next flight home."

That last statement by Jones definitely is racist.

The policy isn't, but I don't like it.

A simple solution would be to get rid of the Culturally Arranged Marriage Visitor Visa entirely. I'm not sure why NZ immigration policy should be set to allow for "positive discrimination" to allow exceptions to rules that apply to anybody else. For example, you can't use established religious or cultural practice to deny or grant special rights under NZ law, for example if say from a religion/culture that traditionally denied women property rights, they'd still be bound by the Property (relationships) Act etc.

It's a slippery slope IMO to allow exceptions - granting privilege to groups based on their religious/cultural choices. We're supposed to be a secular country.

As for the mixed stats (10 out of 87 vs "more than half" - without giving actual figures) that smacks of the reporter possibly not wanting to give stats that may be behind the reason for Immigration NZ's shift to reduce exceptions to policy.

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MikeB4

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#2342837 24-Oct-2019 10:09

Every election since its formation New Zealand First has played the race card in one form or another, this is no exception. They do it in order to gain the racist and xenophobic voters. I sincerely hope that way less than 5% fool for this garbage and this stain on our politics is removed forever.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

tdgeek

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#2342839 24-Oct-2019 10:16

I get that. We arent allowing any bypassing of laws, its just supporting marriage. Marriage in India differs to here, but its still legal marriage. The exceptions recognise that. Or we stick to our policy which is to ban Indians who have been married less than one year, as we dont embrace their culture, which is not the message that we want to show. If many of these marriages were scams, that would be different, but I doubt thats the case.

I think its just a small anomaly not covered in the law, Immigration has discretion, its being used.

GV27

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#2342974 24-Oct-2019 12:32

MikeB4:

Every election since its formation New Zealand First has played the race card in one form or another, this is no exception. They do it in order to gain the racist and xenophobic voters. I sincerely hope that way less than 5% fool for this garbage and this stain on our politics is removed forever.

...and everyone looks the other way because it gives them the Government they want, if they squint really hard.

NZ First spend the last campaign talking about slashing immigration and then picked on this incredibly small sub-set of migration instead of delivering what it said it would.

It's the same old chicanery. Perhaps some of these Indian spouses should try dressing up as racehorses and seeing if they can get Winston to let them into the country that way.

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#2343016 24-Oct-2019 13:53

Rikkitic:

Yes, it is clearly racist. I don't agree with the notion of arranged marriage but I do understand what cultural differences mean. NZ First MPs need to get over themselves. Just because they are too blinkered to understand that different cultures have different values does not give them the right to ride roughshod over those differences.

Apart from that, someone ought to point out to them who spends 12 hours or more a day 7 days a week operating all the dairies and liquor outlets, never mind the market gardeners, increasingly Indian, who supply our veggie stands and the expert IT people who help keep our industries going. I support our government but that does not extend to NZ First, which is a boil on the coalition that badly needs to be lanced. It is my hope, though not my expectation, that enough voters see what has been going on to give Labour and the Greens a clear majority next time around so they can finally govern without the NZ First millstone around their necks.

When does observation become racial profiling? Not the intent, but perhaps could be construed that way in a racist/not-racist binary argument.

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