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Rikkitic

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#283856 16-Mar-2021 13:23
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floydbloke
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  #2675462 16-Mar-2021 13:47
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I'm neither catholic nor gay so not really qualified (maybe not even entitled) to comment, but the rational me says that if I had to choose between an invisible idol and a real-life one, flesh and blood would win hands down.





So many people complaining about yogurt these days....it's becoming a culture.

 

 


Rikkitic

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  #2675480 16-Mar-2021 14:20
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The amusing thing about this – if that’s the word – is that priests are not supposed to have sex either. Yes, we know what happens, but they are not supposed to. Since the pope has proclaimed that merely being gay is no longer thought of as a sin, and gays are welcome in the Church as long as they don’t live in a relationship, which priests also are not supposed to do, and the only thing that distinguishes gays and priests from other people is the sex act, this suggests that the Church values gays and priests the same. In other words, all priests are gay and all gays are priests. Ipso facto prima facie!

 

 


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  #2675556 16-Mar-2021 15:42
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I'm not entitled to make any conclusions but it's like if you enter a club that you don't have to enter and it says you need to this you can't do that etc, you're not forced to join neither are you forced to bash up anyone outside the club etc.

Fwiw the small steps are in the right direction perhaps




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Rikkitic

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  #2675562 16-Mar-2021 15:52
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Just because the Church no longer burns heretics doesn't mean they wouldn't if they could.

 

 


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  #2675617 16-Mar-2021 17:28
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Some pentecostals and some American churches would that I know. But not the Catholic they are too focused on their rituals. Not the one in AKL, they are too focused on getting rich.




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gzt

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  #2675753 16-Mar-2021 20:21
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Batman: But not the Catholic they are too focused on their rituals. Not the one in AKL, they are too focused on getting rich.

Care to explain this? It's not making much sense to me.

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  #2676072 17-Mar-2021 13:06
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Its a belief based on book/books written thousands of years ago.

 

So why even expect modern thinking or values. A bit naive ?   




gzt

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  #2676094 17-Mar-2021 13:54
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Batman: [snip] it's like if you enter a club that you don't have to enter and it says you need to this you can't do that etc, you're not forced to join [snip]

That's incorrect. Like many religions most people are more or less born into this one. Not that it's particularly relevant to the discussion. It's unfortunate the church does not feel the same way as you - for instance the church lobbies against gay marriage in law and in general against marriage equality.

I agree it's a big step The Pope now supports and advocates civil unions and this should be applauded and recognised as progress.

Rikkitic

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  #2676148 17-Mar-2021 15:40
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I agree the Church actually is sort of moving in the right direction, but with painful hesitancy. I was just pointing out the absurdity of saying it is all right to be gay, but not all right to have gay sex. If gays are sexless, and so are priests, there is no functional difference between them. 

 

 


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  #2676446 18-Mar-2021 11:59
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gzt:
Batman: But not the Catholic they are too focused on their rituals. Not the one in AKL, they are too focused on getting rich.

Care to explain this? It's not making much sense to me.


There are one or two fundamentalist groups out there who might have potential to be violent though there isn't any that are actually violent extremists that I know of unlike certain other religions. But many have zero potential to become violent.




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  #2676452 18-Mar-2021 12:09
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gzt:
Batman: [snip] it's like if you enter a club that you don't have to enter and it says you need to this you can't do that etc, you're not forced to join [snip]

That's incorrect. Like many religions most people are more or less born into this one. Not that it's particularly relevant to the discussion. It's unfortunate the church does not feel the same way as you - for instance the church lobbies against gay marriage in law and in general against marriage equality.

I agree it's a big step The Pope now supports and advocates civil unions and this should be applauded and recognised as progress.


I think you can lobby against anything from funding America's cup to rental property tax laws. At the end of the day that's how democracy works and it worked, gay marriage is legal. I'm not sure you are born and shackled into most religions, definitely not this religion. There is no ransom to remain in the Catholic. They are there by choice. Again, unlike some other religion.




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  #2676453 18-Mar-2021 12:12
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Rikkitic:

I agree the Church actually is sort of moving in the right direction, but with painful hesitancy. I was just pointing out the absurdity of saying it is all right to be gay, but not all right to have gay sex. If gays are sexless, and so are priests, there is no functional difference between them. 


 



In many countries of certain religion, you can be jailed etc for gay sex, there is severe punishment.

But the catholic Church is saying that their current understanding is they are unable to enshrine in their current dogma but if you want to do it in your own business that's none of the church business they're not going to make a big deal out of it. But I could be wrong, but that sounds like that's what's going on.

What many christians don't realise is (according to their own beliefs!) getting angry, streaming torrents and looking at beautiful people are also not acceptable, aka sin, and all sin are the same, there is no room for holier than thous.




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  #2677303 19-Mar-2021 16:21
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Stephen Fry said it best

 

 

I was raised as a C of E and went to Anglican/English based boarding schools. I met my partner in Oct 1981 and we will be celebrating our 40th anniversary this year. When we meet I was in the RNZAF where LGBT was illegal. I retired from the service two years after our meeting and we both went to Aussie for 30 years. Barracks in the services are now unisex and nobody gives a flying fig what your gender preference is.

 

We are both not religious. Why, because of the pure hypocrisy of it all. I did a Social Studies paper at uni where I researched the history of AIDS/HIV and discovered right up till the late 19th century most of the Popes had had an STD of one form or the other and the Catholic clergy in general where all having it off with each other, civilians and abusing children. All condoned at the highest levels.

 

Faith is individualistic and immutable and incorruptible.

Religion is a social construct,
 made by Man for Man to explain Faith,

therefore it is fallible.





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  #2684204 30-Mar-2021 17:25
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Rikkitic:

 

I agree the Church actually is sort of moving in the right direction, but with painful hesitancy. 

 

 

"Moving in the right direction" is as if the entire church changes in unison.

 

That's not the way it seems to work in history, schisms are the reason why there are now (almost) countless denominations.

 

For example, Grace Presbyterian Church split when the Presbyterian Church became more liberal. Grace Church leaders and followers wanted to continue to indoctrinate children with concepts that homosexuality is sinful, abortion is murder, that women are inferior to men, and the curious concept that you can be absolved of all past sin by "grace alone" - you don't even have to say you're sorry.

 

The situation in America is interesting and one to watch:

 

https://www.dw.com/en/joe-biden-the-pope-and-the-looming-schism-in-americas-catholic-church/a-56311499

 

I wish I could say I didn't care as I'm an atheist, but while some churches are hesitantly moving in the right direction (from a humanist perspective) others are not - particularly in America.  When religious fundamentalism (of any faith) preaching bigotry and intolerance starts to heavily influence politics - big trouble is ahead. Christians who think their religion is immune as "it's different because.... Christian values" are delusional.


Rikkitic

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  #2684243 30-Mar-2021 18:37
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I was actually referring to the catholic church, not American protestant fundamentalists. In spite of the schisms, it is still possible to generalise about it overall. But the point you make is a good one. I sometimes wonder if America as a whole isn't having a nervous breakdown of some kind.

 

 


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