Drugs and the law

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Rikkitic

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#296287 5-Jun-2022 11:29

As I was reading this article, a thought occurred to me. It is not a new or original idea, but it struck me with new force and clarity. The war on drugs has been well and truly lost and they must be legalised without delay. If not, democratic societies will be overwhelmed by violent crime.

Even dangerous drugs like meth should be legalised. The harm they do is less than the tsunami that is coming. The only way left to stop the wave is to remove the profit. Those who object most loudly to this are serving the interests of the drug criminals. So are the politicians still too weak and fearful to take such a bold move. I do not believe legalisation will happen. Vested interests and emotional irrationality are just too strong. The result will be a criminal society run by feuding gangs. That is our inevitable future.

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#2923972 8-Jun-2022 14:32

That sounds like a really bad idea to me.

You'll get no argument from me that the war on drugs has been a huge failure, but I can't see how just legalizing everything could be a solution. Drugs like meth are incredibly addictive and destructive.

Recreational cannabis should be fully legalized. Possession of other drugs (under a certain amount that makes it obvious it's for personal use) should be decriminalized.

Then the focus can go toward busting the manufacturers and dealers of the hard drugs, like meth. The tax revenue collected from legal sales of cannabis could go toward programs to help addict of meth etc to get off it, rather than treating them like criminals.

Rikkitic

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#2923986 8-Jun-2022 15:17

It is time to try something new. Lots and lots of people really want drugs, whether that is due to addiction or not. The only way to stop criminals from pushing them is to remove the profit. As the article I quoted shows, the wave is just too big to stop by any normal enforcement means. It will engulf us. The money involved will corrupt every aspect of society until it truly is too late to do anything. Make it all legal and use the funds now wasted on enforcement to try to limit the damage as much as possible. It truly is the lesser of evils.

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1101

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#2924192 9-Jun-2022 11:22

Rikkitic:

It truly is the lesser of evils.

is it really though.
I doubt it.

When I was at school, things that limited drug use by many was cost & availability

Make it cheap , easy to get & legal and watch the misuse and abuse skyrocket in the under 20's & under 30's
NZ has enough issues with alcohol abuse . Make more drugs legal and we wont cope with those either

Look at the issues NZ had when party pills & synthetics where legal. People where dying . Many others badly affected .
NZ had to make party pills & synthetics illegal to combat their issues and abuse. Do we not learn from that ?

Lets see what happens in other countries that have decriminalized/legalized all drugs .
If we get this wrong , NZ will be dealing with any bad outcome for decades .

Rikkitic

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#2924207 9-Jun-2022 12:42

1101:

When I was at school, things that limited drug use by many was cost & availability

Make it cheap , easy to get & legal and watch the misuse and abuse skyrocket in the under 20's & under 30's
NZ has enough issues with alcohol abuse . Make more drugs legal and we wont cope with those either

Look at the issues NZ had when party pills & synthetics where legal. People where dying . Many others badly affected .
NZ had to make party pills & synthetics illegal to combat their issues and abuse. Do we not learn from that ?

Lets see what happens in other countries that have decriminalized/legalized all drugs .
If we get this wrong , NZ will be dealing with any bad outcome for decades .

You are missing my point and making the wrong argument. Read that article I quoted. It is only a single small example of what is coming. Also here. I am not arguing that legalising drugs will not have consequences. I am arguing that not removing the profit for criminals will destroy our society from within. We have already had decades of drug enforcement and it has got us absolutely nowhere. The only option remaining is to legalise everything and deal with the fallout as best we can. Any other boat has long since sailed. We (and every other country in this position) blew it. We lost the war. It is way past time to get real.

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Rikkitic

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#2924362 9-Jun-2022 16:05

Thailand (of all places!) has made it legal to grow your own and is handing out marijuana plants to lucky citizens. We are looking sillier and sillier as we spend hundreds of dollars an hour on drug helicopters and thousands on ripping up plantations of perfectly harmless vegetables.

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#2924377 9-Jun-2022 16:44

Rikkitic:

Thailand (of all places!) has made it legal to grow your own and is handing out marijuana plants to lucky citizens. We are looking sillier and sillier as we spend hundreds of dollars an hour on drug helicopters and thousands on ripping up plantations of perfectly harmless vegetables.

For cannabis sure, but you're talking about legalising everything. Meth isn't a perfectly harmless vegetable.

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Rikkitic

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#2924385 9-Jun-2022 17:08

Small steps.

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GV27

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#2924545 10-Jun-2022 08:09

So we make meth legal, we then have legal supply presumably to cut the gangs out of the market, but there won't be a black market for meth like there is for tobacco?

This is the bit I really struggled with when it came to weed reform - we're going to set up legal dispensaries who can't sell to kids, but the kids who can't buy from the new dispensaries are just going to... stop using it all of a sudden?

I really doubt making something freely available is going to stop addicts breaking into houses to fund a fix whether the channels they obtain it through are legal or not - it's still going to have a cost and they're still going to do what it takes (and that's probably not going to be holding down a respectable full-time job, let's be honest) to cover the cost.

So I'm not sure what this actually solves other than just making it harder to prosecute users - which I agree with for low-level stuff like weed and MDMA, but not for things like meth, heroin or cocaine - or any other substance that can trigger psychoses.

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#2924563 10-Jun-2022 08:51

The only reason there is a black market for tobacco is because the authorities have artificially made it so expensive. The current approach to drugs has been tried for at least 60+ years. The only result is the situation we now have. What does it take to understand that this is not only not working, but is making things worse? Prohibition led to Al Capone. That is where we are heading, only worse. Again, what I am proposing is a last resort response to an emergency.

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#2924573 10-Jun-2022 09:03

Rikkitic:

What does it take to understand that this is not only not working, but is making things worse?

If you're planning on taxing and regulating something, then it's going to still cost people money. And shock horror, people who are a bit iffy on ethics who are fine with breaking and entering to pay for stuff now are going to probably keep doing it to pay for the thing you're taxing and regulating.

Is what we're doing now working? Probably not. Is pretending that legalising hard Class A drugs will resolve all the social problems caused by Class A drugs extremely wishful thinking? Probably.

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#2924576 10-Jun-2022 09:07

I'm not planning on taxing and regulating it. I'm merely saying it should be legalised. Let the free market work it out. Some small traders will continue to import and distribute it (whatever 'it' is) but the big money will be gone and so will the gangs.

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#2924582 10-Jun-2022 09:17

Rikkitic:

I'm not planning on taxing and regulating it. I'm merely saying it should be legalised. Let the free market work it out. Some small traders will continue to import and distribute it (whatever 'it' is) but the big money will be gone and so will the gangs.

Ahuh, so nothing to fund anything to deal with the huge explosion in addiction and social issues by making these things far more widespread than they already are? But at the same time legalising things like fenatyl, bath salts, meth or cocaine so that anyone can do it and/or supply it?

So we're saying that a totally pure, Thatcher-esque neoliberalist approach, derided as doing major damage to NZ in almost every way by some here, is the approach we should take with some of the most addictive substances on the planet? Like, that it will work in this one etremely specific instance where the stakes are absolutely enormous?

I'm unconvinced.

Rikkitic

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#2924588 10-Jun-2022 09:27

My argument, illustrated by the article I quoted in my first post, is that drug profits, which result from current enforcement measures, are so enormous that they will overwhelm civil society and corrupt every aspect of it. This is already happening in Chile. The only way left to stop this is to remove the profits. Yes, legalising all drugs will lead to great social harm. Not doing so will be worse. We are caught between a rock and a hard place as a direct result of drug enforcement policy over the past decades. We blew it. That is the point I am making.

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#2924621 10-Jun-2022 10:44

Rikkitic: The only reason there is a black market for tobacco is because the authorities have artificially made it so expensive.

True enough. The main reason is heath effects became well known and people now avoid the stuff. The industry is not allowed to advertise it or make false claims as they used to. It's interesting some propose to ban it from sale entirely. Industrial products do tend towards becoming awful.RTDs for example. Both illegal industrial meth production and illegal industrial cannabis production meeting the minimum marketable product requirement are not good for users.

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#2924655 10-Jun-2022 12:08

GV27:

So we make meth legal, we then have legal supply presumably to cut the gangs out of the market, but there won't be a black market for meth like there is for tobacco?

This is the bit I really struggled with when it came to weed reform - we're going to set up legal dispensaries who can't sell to kids, but the kids who can't buy from the new dispensaries are just going to... stop using it all of a sudden?

I really doubt making something freely available is going to stop addicts breaking into houses to fund a fix whether the channels they obtain it through are legal or not - it's still going to have a cost and they're still going to do what it takes (and that's probably not going to be holding down a respectable full-time job, let's be honest) to cover the cost.

So I'm not sure what this actually solves other than just making it harder to prosecute users - which I agree with for low-level stuff like weed and MDMA, but not for things like meth, heroin or cocaine - or any other substance that can trigger psychoses.

Kids who want alcohol don't go to bootleggers selling bathtub moonshine, they get an older sibling or friend to buy it for them from a bottle store. The same would happen with cannabis if legalised. It would still cut the gangs out of it (for the most part).

Prosecute users for possession/use, or for crimes they commit while under the influence?

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