PSA: Voyager's 30 day notice period.

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#3052766 21-Mar-2023 12:14

Mehrts:

When switching power companies, the new provider will get in touch with the existing one to let them know that you're moving on. You only have to deal with one party for this process.

Why isn't this process the same with ISPs?

If I understand correctly, its just the billing that changes with a power switch - so, simple.

With ISPs there are actual network configuration changes which need to happen - so, not so simple.

EDIT: Re the billing overlap and the 30 days notice. I have had that many times with work connections when we have changed or cut off services.

Can't say if its right or wrong - but seems very common.

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#3052778 21-Mar-2023 13:09

It would seem quite unfair especially as its public information that the upstream's (I.E Chorus, UFF etc) can all be cancelled immediately and will give the RSP a credit back to the day it was cancelled, so in your case where the line is churned, they will be credited any upstream charges for the next 30 day's so Voyager are just banking the margin.

It makes it difficult when giving your loosing RSP notice for a line to be churned as it can risk them disconnecting the line (which can turn into mess especially with DSL)

I'd guess if challenged in the disputes tribunal they would be hard pressed to justify it, especially if you were to bring up the unfair contract terms "reasonably necessary to protect your legitimate business needs"

myfullflavour

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#3054299 24-Mar-2023 21:16

We don’t get notified for many types of churn scenarios.

- copper churn, no notification.
- port 2 activation, no notification
- technology change eg fibre to 5G/4G fixed wireless

ISPs typically bill in advance.

30 days notice keeps things simple
- no need to action refunds which are an administrative headache
- less risk of being charged by a supplier with no income from customer
- gives us time to do the work to finalise the customers account, send them an accurate final bill etc

In this case, you should have lodged the transfer, requesting the new RSP action in 30 days time. Then give Voyager the 30 days notice they require.

networkn

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#3054395 25-Mar-2023 10:58

pchs:
It would seem quite unfair especially as its public information that the upstream's (I.E Chorus, UFF etc) can all be cancelled immediately and will give the RSP a credit back to the day it was cancelled, so in your case where the line is churned, they will be credited any upstream charges for the next 30 day's so Voyager are just banking the margin.

It makes it difficult when giving your loosing RSP notice for a line to be churned as it can risk them disconnecting the line (which can turn into mess especially with DSL)

I'd guess if challenged in the disputes tribunal they would be hard pressed to justify it, especially if you were to bring up the unfair contract terms "reasonably necessary to protect your legitimate business needs"

Why would they need to justify it? It's clearly stated in their t&c's and contract you agreed to.

rugrat

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#3054407 25-Mar-2023 12:18

networkn:

Why would they need to justify it? It's clearly stated in their t&c's and contract you agreed to.

If someone wants broadband what choice do they have but to agree to it. Just because somethings in a contract doesn’t make it fair.

They don’t have to justify it as it is legal and the Commerce commission won’t do anything about it.

It should work the same way as electricity in my view, except maybe an extra tick box that customer isn’t setting up second connection at same time and as long as tick box ticked losing ISP get’s notified in all changes, whether port 2 on ONT or different technology. With this there should be no need to contact losing ISP.

Current situation risks customer being billed twice in over lap, or having period of time where no service if something goes wrong, I.e they notify losing ISP and losing ISP gets disconnect order into LFC before other one gets churn order in, only one order can be in system at a time.

michaelmurfy

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#3054411 25-Mar-2023 12:31

@myfullflavour Voyager also bill in advance. The point I’m making is tacking on 30 days past that. I’m sure if you did that to your customers then stop talking to them you’re likely to piss them off too.

I said in the original post my bad for not checking but I’ve also never had an ISP decide to pull this stunt with me either.

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RunningMan

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#3054423 25-Mar-2023 13:32

rugrat: [snip]

If someone wants broadband what choice do they have but to agree to it.

Perhaps use one of the 50 or more other providers that have different terms that may suit them better?

Different providers will have different prices / connect rate / contract length / termination policies / post/pre pay etc. It's a matter of picking the one that suits your requirements best but being aware of all the pros/cons of that option.

In the case of Voyager, they have no fixed term contract (in comparison to say min 12 months with many others) but balance this with requiring 30 days notice of termination. It's not difficult to find - it's there in the FAQs on the home broadband page - the advantage is you aren't locked in for a year, the disadvantage is you need to plan your transition date a few weeks in advance.

The simplest way to change away from Voyager would be to order the new provider connection to start in say 28 days time (picking a date that aligns with a billing cycle may be easiest), and give notice to Voyager on the same date. That way you have a 2 day overlap on the off chance the new provider doesn't stand up the connection on the date as required.

RunningMan

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#3054577 25-Mar-2023 16:50

There seems to be a bit of anti Voyager sentiment here, but this notice period is not uncommon.

Spark - 30 days

Orcon - 30 days

Vodafone - 1 month

It's not that difficult to work with, you just need to plan the provider change in advance as opposed to doing a last minute change.

rugrat

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#3054605 25-Mar-2023 19:46

RunningMan:

rugrat: [snip]

If someone wants broadband what choice do they have but to agree to it.

Perhaps use one of the 50 or more other providers that have different terms that may suit them better?

Different providers will have different prices / connect rate / contract length / termination policies / post/pre pay etc. It's a matter of picking the one that suits your requirements best but being aware of all the pros/cons of that option.

People usually go with providers that know, so have expectation of service etc. There could be a big difference in monthly price, as I left one small provider as they massively hiked up monthly price after joined. And I was finding their international speed not as good.

Power providers in NZ the gaining one arranges everything (don’t have to talk to losing provider) so I don’t understand why not the same with broadband . I’ve swapped power providers once, it is not instant but a number of weeks, but a least everything is handled tidally.

I’m with 2Degrees presently, I believe their one is you’re charged up to your next billing date so there it would be best to have new connection couple days before billing date with best way of handling those terms.

Agree with comments to create about 2 day overlap, to be aware of pros and cons when changing/joining and that it is not just Voyager.

I have no hate for ISP’s that do it, just wish things were done in easier way for consumer to switch and for myself when switch will go for a two day overlap even though losing ISP is gaining couple days revenue for service not needed.

I guess this thread was created as Michael previous experiences with swapping with other ISP’s is they’ve been flexible and not strict with their notice period terms.

When I changed from Spark to 2degrees, I did go for a 30 day notice period but they offered to stop charging on day 28 which I accepted, have no idea if that was normal practice or not, but I know they were entitled to charge 30 days if wished under the contract.

michaelmurfy

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#3054609 25-Mar-2023 20:06

The reason why I created this thread is because it isn’t common practise an ISP would tack 30 days on the end of your term. ISP’s are often flexible, my parents were changing providers and didn’t know themselves and going by what everyone on this thread is saying it appears to have happened to a fair few. It is pretty cheeky.

@RunningMan no, no “anti Voyager“ sentiment at all. As I’ve said multiple times I’m fully aware of notice periods. Not difficult for us to work with but many people just simply wouldn’t otherwise know and every time somebody screws up a provider makes 100% margin for a month. It’s actually a pretty unfair practise to do this.

Remember also as per the OP the churn was set to happen 16 days from the last billing date so there was 16 days in that month of service - people have the impression an ISP is notified (including myself) and would expect moving ISP would be a part of the notice period. Voyager in this case are literally making an extra 30 days of service at 100% margin.

Voyager are also not a part of the TDR scheme. It actually hasn’t been easy to chat to them about this also. They’re otherwise a great ISP but things like this let them down.

Dochart

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#3054611 25-Mar-2023 20:17

michaelmurfy: The reason why I created this thread is because it isn’t common practise an ISP would tack 30 days on the end of your term. ISP’s are often flexible, my parents were changing providers and didn’t know themselves and going by what everyone on this thread is saying it appears to have happened to a fair few. It is pretty cheeky.

@RunningMan no, no “anti Voyager“ sentiment at all. As I’ve said multiple times I’m fully aware of notice periods. Not difficult for us to work with but many people just simply wouldn’t otherwise know and every time somebody screws up a provider makes 100% margin for a month. It’s actually a pretty unfair practise to do this.

Remember also as per the OP the churn was set to happen 16 days from the last billing date so there was 16 days in that month of service - people have the impression an ISP is notified (including myself) and would expect moving ISP would be a part of the notice period. Voyager in this case are literally making an extra 30 days of service at 100% margin.

Voyager are also not a part of the TDR scheme. It actually hasn’t been easy to chat to them about this also. They’re otherwise a great ISP but things like this let them down.

I don’t think your parents should have been charged a fee if they placed the ISP/Fibre order a month before they left. Isn’t that the new ISP or Fibre wholesaler job to notify the previous ISP about the switch? I thought the old ISP gets automatically notified about the switch once you place order?

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Wheelbarrow01

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#3054630 25-Mar-2023 22:35

There's a lot of replies on this thread talking about ONTs and second ports etc etc but as per the original post this was a VDSL connection, so many of those comments are not applicable. For DSL, there is no ONT and no second port to connect to - unless you have a second copper line installed at your property.

In a DSL transfer scenario, the Losing Service Provider does not receive any advanced notice of the churn. A notification to the LSP is only sent upon completion of the churn. Many years ago it was my job to process all the incoming losing service provider notifications for Telecom/Spark, so I know the process well. These notifications are sent via Wireline and require an acknowledgement from the LSP.

Also worth mentioning that the copper provisioning system only allows a single service order on a connection at any time. So as long as a gaining service provider has actually submitted their transfer request in Wireline and it's been accepted into the system, the losing service provider cannot disconnect the existing service - at least not at network level. If they try, they will get a 011 rejection ("open service order"). I suppose they could revoke authentication but the underlying DSL service would still work until such time as the transfer is completed.

@michaelmurfy An incumbent RSP cannot easily tell if a transfer order has been placed on their DSL connection prior to the due date. The only way they would know is if they tried to place an order of their own - in that case they would get the 011 rejection notification above, stating there's already an open order on the connection.

A gaining RSP can place a DSL transfer request at anytime, but the minimum is two working days (and a maximum of 60 from memory).

By the way, POTS voice and DSL are regulated services to which the TCF Customer Transfer Code applies. There are clauses in the code that specifically forbid a losing service provider from contacting their customer for the purposes of preventing or delaying a transfer away from being completed. If a losing service provider does become aware of an imminent transfer away from them, they "may contact the End Customer about any processing/technical issues but may not use this opportunity to attempt to win the End Customer back or refer the End Customer to any other personnel within their organisation that engages in retail sales activity".

The views expressed by me are not necessarily those of my employer Chorus NZ Ltd

Wheelbarrow01

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#3054632 25-Mar-2023 22:38

Dochart:

I don’t think your parents should have been charged a fee if they placed the ISP/Fibre order a month before they left. Isn’t that the new ISP or Fibre wholesaler job to notify the previous ISP about the switch? I thought the old ISP gets automatically notified about the switch once you place order?

Chorus only sends a notification at the completion of the transfer. For fibre, this is called a Cease Billing notification.

For copper/DSL (as is the case here) it's a Losing Service Provider notification.

The views expressed by me are not necessarily those of my employer Chorus NZ Ltd

michaelmurfy

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#3054634 25-Mar-2023 22:42

@Wheelbarrow01 Very interesting and also good to know, thanks! I was not fully aware of the process these days. It does in a way bring up another problem where a customer may place an order 30 days out thinking this is the notice period then get charged an extra month. I'm happy to say I was incorrect with my statements above in thinking the losing service provider knows ahead of time.

Stu

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#3054636 25-Mar-2023 22:49

Perhaps in these situations, the gaining RSP should be advising their new customer that it's all on them to notify their old provider they're leaving?

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