EFTPoS / Credit / Debit card read error woes.

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Martin_NZ

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#26456 23-Sep-2008 14:14

Hi All,

Im interested in peoples feedback / thoughts regarding eftpos / credit / debit cards and read errors.

I recently had my kiwibank eftpos card replaced as it was not reading reliably. It was rather annoying when the card could not be read to pay for a purchase especially stuff like petrol which is already in the tank. Id had the card for about 3 years or so and it was only fairly recently that it stopped working reliably. Paid the bank fee of $5 for the new card and thought no more about it.

The replacement card arrived and really was no better so back to the bank I went had it replaced a second time. The bank said "oh... something must have demagnetised it.." What a crock of BS I thought, its in my wallet all the time and does not come close to any magnetic fields that Im aware of. I dont do anything out of the ordinary or mistreat my card.

I followed up with my bank and to my annoyance they would accept no responsibility or acknowledge any issue exists and say "it must be something you're doing to the card". Anyway I refused to pay for a second replacement card and after some arguement and raised voices they issued a third card at no charge.

The third card is no better than any of the others... and to compound things I've had numerous retailers tell me they have huge problems with Kiwibank eftpos cards and Im now wondering if it's not just me and in fact a manufacturing fault or something.

My questions are these....

1. What are the options when an eftpos card fails to read, does the retailer have to process a manual / offline transaction as they do when the network is down or do they have the right to decline the transaction.

2. In the event of a card not reading or being faulty, should the bank replace at no cost

3. What sort of magnetic field strength is required to effectively erase the card, Ive heard it would need a pretty stong magnet in very close proximity.

4. I sometimes have my windows mobile device or Blackberry in my bag I take to work, would this damage the card if my wallet is in there too. Ive always done this and never had any problems till fairly recently.

5. When a card does not read the retailer will try all sorts of things like putting the card inside a plastic bag, a piece of paper or putting sellotape over the mag strip. Whats the deal there... Should they just be cleaning their card readers or is this such a common problem they are simply used to cards not reading.

6. As the eftpos network is now fairly well mature and has been in use for ages is it possible that card stripe readers are now simply wearing out. I notice that Provenco readers in particular are the most problematic and everytime I make a purchase in a shop with one of these readers I cringe and hold my breath.

Sorry for the lengthy post but I welcome any comments etc

Regs
Marty Smallman
IT Specialist
US Antarctic Program

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BDFL - Memuneh
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#166523 23-Sep-2008 14:18

Interesting... I had a Visa card for credit/eftpos for a couple of years. Then I had it replaced because of its expiry date.

The new card was a hit and miss, like yours. I've asked for a replacement - and that is the same. I have now asked for a third card. Let's see how it goes.

Are all these cards manufactured by the same company?

These links are referral codes

MattD

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#166524 23-Sep-2008 14:20

Marty, is the replacement card failing at all EFTPOS and ATM or just the same one(s)

Martin_NZ

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#166527 23-Sep-2008 14:31

Hi,

The cards are manufactured by Security Plastics, who manufacture the vast majority of cards in NZ.

ATMs seem to work fairly reliably it's eftpos terminals tht I have trouble with and as I said in particular the Provenco models (they are usually blue with card reader beside the keypad not seperate as some are)

n00dy

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#166533 23-Sep-2008 14:55

martinschcnz: . The bank said "oh... something must have demagnetised it.." What a crock of BS I thought, its in my wallet all the time and does not come close to any magnetic fields that Im aware of. I dont do anything out of the ordinary or mistreat my card.

A little off topic
I saw an episode of "mythbusters" where they tried to "demagnetise" swipe card, even used this huge electromagnet. Still didnt erase it. They finally did erase the card but it was near impossible. Tried all the commonly stated ways none of them did it.
Back on topic.

Never have had to get card replaced, but always 100% of the time works in ATM's however eftpos machines can be hit and miss, try serveral times, upside down, add some paper, never been stuck though.

RedJungle

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#166534 23-Sep-2008 15:08

I can't say I've ever had any trouble with my Kiwibank cards.

I worked in a retail situation for a few years when I was younger - my experience was that usually when a card didn't work the card was either dirty or just worn out (the strip would be physically faded). So If this is happening with brand new cards for multiple people it would make me wonder if anything has changed in manufacturing of late.

Red Jungle: we make fantastic software

StrangeOne

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#166535 23-Sep-2008 15:22

Some cards are thinner than others, we had lots of problems with the thinner ones before getting new machines.

skykissme

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#166537 23-Sep-2008 15:31

A friend of mine has kiwibank card and have the same problem. But his problem was solved by putting a clear cello tape on/over the magnet strip on the card. Make sure you have the tape in one strip that will cover the whole bit. Not sure if it will work for you. But it worths a try, don't you think?

We'll never be too old to learn, and we learn at least one new thing every day.

Martin_NZ

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#167325 26-Sep-2008 12:38

Yes apparrently it turns out that Kiwibank cards are thinner than normal.

Ive resorted to the sellotape trick, but really should this be necessary.

I mean I dont mind having to put a bit of sellotape on the card, but doesnt this indicate some kind of manufacturing problem...

In anycase shouldnt the bank be responsible for ensuring their cards are compatible with the existing devices in the marketplace and not denying that there is any issue.

Thanks
Marty

Se7ensyns

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#167328 26-Sep-2008 12:48

I have an ANZ card which is manufactured by Leigh Mardon and I have the same issue . I have noticed that the magnetic stip is slowly deteriorating and most shops but a plastic bag around it and then swipe it through and it then works. Maybe all the actually cards come from the same place but are embossed and different firms. I guess the sellotape trick woudl work the same as the plastic bag one.

Rasin

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#167329 26-Sep-2008 12:48

Hi all first post :D
Just reading this it might not be of help
But i have definatly had an issue with some of my cards
I have one of those Visa Loaded Cards
Every time i use in a non KiwiBank (Post Shop i suppose) it doesnt work and i sometimes have issue
making eftpos purchases
Very frustrating...Does work sometimes and when i asked about it they said i would have to pay $10 for a new card....Dont want to do that thank you not my fault.

But hope this helps :D

Martin_NZ

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#167335 26-Sep-2008 13:19

I guess being Kiwibank / PostShop its all the same organisation. They may source both typoes of cards from the same supplier.

Bung

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#167355 26-Sep-2008 14:08

n00dy:
A little off topic
I saw an episode of "mythbusters" where they tried to "demagnetise" swipe card, even used this huge electromagnet. Still didnt erase it. They finally did erase the card but it was near impossible. Tried all the commonly stated ways none of them did it.
Back on topic.

All it took to erase the card was to move it in the magnetic field. The sort of magnet that holds women's bags closed is sufficient if you slide the card over it.

The tape cure explained

My BNZ card was always trouble in the Unysis readers used by some New Worlds. The BNZ haven't charged me so far for replacements.

mdf

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#167382 26-Sep-2008 15:10

I've never had a problem with my kiwibank eftpos card - its a few years old, but a in all honesty it has been used fairly seldom in that time as we've been overseas. Having a look at it though, it does appear to be much thinner than other cards, but on closer examination its actually the same width - kiwibank likes to use transparent plastics it seems and I think this probably makes the card look thinner.

In terms of your queries:

1 - my understanding is that the retailer has no obligation to perform any transaction unless it is by way of legal tender (i.e. cash). They have no obligation to accept credit cards, cheques, eftpos etc. Which is obviously how certain retailers do not offer these ways of payments. If they advertise that they accept eftpos, then you may have more of an argument. If they cannot provide it due to "your fault" then you're probably stuffed.

2 - you've got a much better argument against the bank. Banks in NZ are pretty much subject to both the Banking Code of Practice (available thru the NZ Bankers association website - www.nzba.org.nz) and the Consumer Guarantees Act (see legislation.govt.nz). The COP doesn't have a lot to say about faulty cards (its focussed on when you will be liable for fraudulent transactions for the most part). However the CGA does have some helpful stuff. Without wanting to really get in to the details (1) this applies to banking services and (2) says that goods and services have to be "fit for the purpose" for which they are supplied. You could argue whether an eftpos card is a good or a service, but it doesn't really matter. A card that fails after 5 years the bank could probably make an argument that it was fit for purpose. A card that fails after 5 days probably isn't. Normally the mention of the Consumer Guarantees Act gets the wheels of commerce moving, as it were. [disclaimer - this is general advice, see a lawyer for legal advice]

3/4/5/6 - from what I understand of these cards, magnets pretty much have no effect on bank-standard card strips (the disposable style cards that might be used for train tickets or the like - they will rip thru those). I think I've heard that strong AC currents may have an effect, but really not sure about this. I don't think a blackberry counts for this ;-).

From what has been explained to me (and at the risk of spreading further hearsay and chinese whispers) the real problem is impacts on the magnetic strip - so having it bouncing around loose out of a wallet. Obviously this also applies when people ram it through the eftpos machines (forward and backwards makes me cringe every time they do it). Basically you're knocking the magnetic particles around. The data on these is arranged in a series of strips (like a bar code I guess) and key to being able to read it is the gaps they leave gaps between each strip. When you smash a card around, the "edges" of each strip "break off" into the gaps - so your "barcode" starts to look "smeared". The readers basically cannot distinguish between each strip.

Again, realying what I have been told (no first hand experience) ,putting a plastic bag or tape [*but re tape, see below*] over it actually decreases the magnetic field, the idea being you are trying to block out the "smeared" data in the gaps between the strips and just read the "real" data.

So actually in terms of readers it should be (at least in theory) the newer more sensitive ones that give you the trouble, because they are reading the smeared data. Older less sensitive ones should (like the bag theory) not be able to pick this up.

Again, I have been told that you should *not* put tape over your magnetic strip. While it works fine initially, the tape will wear out. When you pull it off to replace it, you will further damage the magnetic strip on the card. Not sure if this is scaremongering or not, but it sort of makes sense.

Having come back from the UK/Europe and seen things like chip and pin and (woah - mind boggling) _6_ digit pin numbers (that will scare some), I really think these should be rolled out here. The security around magnetic stripes is just awful [see the great work of Prof Ross Anderson at Cambridge - http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/ - consult this if you're ever having arguments with your bank about fraudulent transactions]. Admittedly, there are problems with chips too, but they are much more secure. And things like wireless card readers (waiters bring them to the table) are pretty convenient, particularly when we're being told not to let our cards out of our sight. I'm fairly certain most readers in NZ are already capable of taking chip cards, so why aren't the banks rolling them out!?

[edit - updated due to bold and underline appearing further than I had intended]

[edit - updated *again* due to rich text formatting issues. Going back to asterisks and underscores]

mdf

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#167387 26-Sep-2008 15:16

Bung's previous post and the link do a much better job of explaining this that I did. Cheers.

RmACK

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#167388 26-Sep-2008 15:17

martinschcnz: Hi,

The cards are manufactured by Security Plastics, who manufacture the vast majority of cards in NZ.

ATMs seem to work fairly reliably it's eftpos terminals tht I have trouble with and as I said in particular the Provenco models (they are usually blue with card reader beside the keypad not seperate as some are)

That's interesting. I had my ASB card start playing up after a year or two of regular use and the blue provencos were fine while the black ones with seperate keypad were problematic! This was while away on holiday. A camp site put sellotape on my card and I had no more troubles for 6 months until the horrible renovations at our countdown made me go to woolworths where the success was about 1 in 4 on average. Everywhere else was fine. One day a young girl ripped the tape off & then it wouldn't work anywhere (after working in woolworths) and was all sticky. Had to get a new one.

I don't use my kiwibank one as much but have never had issues.

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