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David321

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#310704 15-Nov-2023 10:13
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I have recently been looking into investment funds for our two year old, something we would put about $30 a week into for around 18 years to build some cash for her to use on something we find appropriate (education, house deposit etc).

 

The dilemma I face is the options I have for this -

 

1 - Setting it up in my child's name would give the lower tax rate of 10.5%, but she would have control of the money at 18 years old, something I don't like the idea of.

 

2 - Setting it up in my name would mean I have full control and can give it to her when she needs it for something important, but I would pay the higher tax of 28% on returns, which would make a fair difference to the amount earnt over 18 years

 

Trying to decide which way to go I have considered a couple of other options, but I know very little about them and possible implications

 

1 - Setting it up in her name to have the lower tax rate, withdrawing the money when she turns 17 and putting it into an account with my name. This would give the benefit of a low tax rate for 17 years and maintaining control of the funds when she turns 18 (at the cost of starting to pay 28% on returns which I am fine with as it would only been a few more years until she ideally bought a house or something with the money) 

 

2 - A couple of people have suggested setting up a trust, all I have been told about this is that I could stipulate when and how the funds are used? can anyone elaborate on this? for example, would I still set up a managed fund in her name and have that transferred to the trust somehow? can I make the conditions very simple and just say the money can be used for what I think is good? and can I change these conditions later? lastly, what would it roughly cost to have a trust set up for this? I am wondering if it would cost more to implement and manage a trust  than the amount of extra money I would pay in tax by having the managed fund in my name at 28% for the whole life of the fund?





_David_

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wellygary
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  #3159706 15-Nov-2023 10:44
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I am wondering if it would cost more to implement and manage a trust  than the amount of extra money I would pay in tax by having the managed fund in my name at 28% for the whole life of the fund?

 

If you are saving a couple of thousand a year for a Child, a trust is an expensive and complicated way of doing this..

 

The lowest overhead is to stick it in their name and IRD number, you have control until they are an Adult, 

 

Trusts pay tax at a flat rate of 33%, (and the outgoing labour Govt was going to increase it to 39%)

 

 

 

Trustee income is taxed at a flat tax rate, which is currently 33%. This means that the same tax rate applies from the first dollar of trustee income derived, unlike personal income which is taxed at an increasing tax rate as income rises.

 

https://www.taxpolicy.ird.govt.nz/-/media/project/ir/tp/publications/2023/2023-other-fact-sheet-trustee-tax-rate/2023-other-fact-sheet-trustee-tax-rate-pdf.pdf?modified=20230531035439&modified=20230531035439

 

 




duckDecoy
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  #3159710 15-Nov-2023 10:51
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As mentioned above, if you are wanting to avoid the higher tax rate then a Trust is not going to be what you want.  You cannot take advantage of your child's lower tax rate.

 

And perhaps you missed the comment on your previous post, but investing the money under your child's name and then switching it into your name at age 17 could very well get you into strife with the IRD.  It could be viewed as an attempt by you to pay lower taxes on an investment that benefits you, after all you are putting the money into your name when they turn 17 so how does the IRD know you will give it to your kids later.

 

You may simply have to accept that you'll need to tell them they have an investment, and when they are 18 you will work with them to figure out how to invest it somewhere until they are 25 (or whatever).  i.e. let them know that that's the intention so they will hopefully get on board.   As education was one of the options for the use of the money perhaps getting it at 18 will be fine as they can pay for their tertiary education with it.


alikat
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  #3159725 15-Nov-2023 11:28
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If you're worried about the tax rate, you're worried about the wrong thing, and you should be thinking about making decent enough returns instead.

 

Things to consider about a trust:

 

     

  1. Trust tax rate is going up to 39% on 1 April 2024 unless the incoming government stops it, and they haven't said they would so booo (aka Trustee Tax Rate)
  2. Beneficiary Minors are taxed on taxable distributions from the Trust at the Trustee tax rate until they're no longer minors (16 yrs old) so that's a 39% tax rate from 1 April
  3. Wouldn't get the benefit in a trust of taxable distributions until no longer considered minor and then it goes to the beneficiary's marginal tax rate
  4. The costs alone of administering a trust each year for tax returns and disclosures (full set of accounts, balance sheet, tax return disclosures per year can run into the thousands)
  5. the initial cost of setting up a Trust (also, thousands)
  6. It immediately becomes more complicated if there is an overseas relocation (then it becomes a non-complying trust at 45% tax rate)

 

I'd only say set up a trust if you have other assets worth protecting - eg family home, and you're in a high-risk industry, such as builder, own your own business etc.

 

 

 

 




cddt
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  #3159757 15-Nov-2023 12:55
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I would say open an account in their name, their own IRD number, lower tax rate, etc. for now. When they are 17 you can reassess depending on the type of person your child turns out to be. They might be happy for you to continue managing it with no effective access until a tuition bill falls due or they want it to go towards a deposit. Or you might decide they need legal separation from the asset until they are older, at which point you can set up a trust. 


JimmyH
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  #3161394 20-Nov-2023 09:44
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Trusts are good, but not for this. The setup and admin costs would likely eat the first couple of years of what you plan to put in, they require a bit of work to administer (you really should have an accountant), and tax will be at 39%. 

 

Have you thought of just enrolling them in Kiwisaver and making your contributions to this? This would be administratively simple, have low admin costs, set them up to continue saving once they start earning, and severely restricts their access to the money (only really for a new house or if in extreme hardship) until they are 65. 


David321

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  #3161423 20-Nov-2023 10:18
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JimmyH:

 

Trusts are good, but not for this. The setup and admin costs would likely eat the first couple of years of what you plan to put in, they require a bit of work to administer (you really should have an accountant), and tax will be at 39%. 

 

Have you thought of just enrolling them in Kiwisaver and making your contributions to this? This would be administratively simple, have low admin costs, set them up to continue saving once they start earning, and severely restricts their access to the money (only really for a new house or if in extreme hardship) until they are 65. 

 

 

 

 

Yes we gave Kiwisaver some serious thought, but it was the restricted access that actually put us off, we figure something else could pop up such as some sort of education etc, basically we wanted to have a saving/investment platform set up for her that we could put money into and then give to her when necessary.

 

I think there is a very good chance it will be used to buy her first home (well I hope!), but I was wondering if any future government could remove that ability?

 

I have actually just set up an account with a fund provider in my name using my PIR of 28%, I know the tax is higher than it would be if it were in her name, but using the calculator linked below with an initial investment of $2000 and $30 per week for 18 years, annual returns at 9%, over 20 years with inflation set at 4% per year the difference is about $7000 over 20 years, which is a bit, but not extreme considering the advantage of my wife and I maintaining control of the money.

 

 

 

https://www.paye.net.nz/investment/

 

 

 

 





_David_

 
 
 
 

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trig42
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  #3161427 20-Nov-2023 10:23
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You should still whack $20 a week into a Kiwisaver for her - the government will top it up with $520 a year - instant 50% return on your money.

 

Put it in a growth fund with a provider of choice and by the time she's 18 it'll have a decent chunk of change in it. It will go through ups and downs over that time, but over 17 or so years, it should generate a decent return.

 

(of course, YMMV, this is my own opinion).


David321

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  #3161428 20-Nov-2023 10:28
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trig42:

 

You should still whack $20 a week into a Kiwisaver for her - the government will top it up with $520 a year - instant 50% return on your money.

 

Put it in a growth fund with a provider of choice and by the time she's 18 it'll have a decent chunk of change in it. It will go through ups and downs over that time, but over 17 or so years, it should generate a decent return.

 

(of course, YMMV, this is my own opinion).

 

 

 

 

All the info I have seen online says that government contributions only start once the child is 18?

 

Pretty sure National stopped those contributions at the same time they stopped the $1000 for new accounts and also halved govt contributions from just over $1000 per year to just over $500 per year.





_David_

trig42
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  #3161431 20-Nov-2023 10:32
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David321:

 

trig42:

 

You should still whack $20 a week into a Kiwisaver for her - the government will top it up with $520 a year - instant 50% return on your money.

 

Put it in a growth fund with a provider of choice and by the time she's 18 it'll have a decent chunk of change in it. It will go through ups and downs over that time, but over 17 or so years, it should generate a decent return.

 

(of course, YMMV, this is my own opinion).

 

 

 

 

All the info I have seen online says that government contributions only start once the child is 18?

 

Pretty sure National stopped those contributions at the same time they stopped the $1000 for new accounts and also halved govt contributions from just over $1000 per year to just over $500 per year.

 

 

Oh, you're right.

 

 

 

Dirty B*stds.

 

 

 

Ignore me then, as you were :)


concordnz
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  #3161451 20-Nov-2023 11:18
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Having a 6yo myself,

I would recommend doing "none of the above"

Don't set something up using their IRD number.
(you lose the ability to do stuff if you do that)

Set up a savings account under your own bank profile, and simply label the account with their name.
(worrying about tax rates is minor in the whole scheme of things)

This allows you full control/flexibility,
And rather than just a 'bucket that no one can touch'
You get the ability to 'teach' them good money management - if they desperately want a new bicycle or something very very special, they can contribute something towards it out of their 'savings account' and they can see the impact that has in interest earned.

And if you havnt taught them to manage money by the time they are 16, and can trust them to take over the account - you can of course withhold it untill they have grown up at 40yo, because its under your full control...

David321

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  #3161514 20-Nov-2023 12:07
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concordnz: Having a 6yo myself,

I would recommend doing "none of the above"

Don't set something up using their IRD number.
(you lose the ability to do stuff if you do that)

Set up a savings account under your own bank profile, and simply label the account with their name.
(worrying about tax rates is minor in the whole scheme of things)

This allows you full control/flexibility,
And rather than just a 'bucket that no one can touch'
You get the ability to 'teach' them good money management - if they desperately want a new bicycle or something very very special, they can contribute something towards it out of their 'savings account' and they can see the impact that has in interest earned.

And if you havnt taught them to manage money by the time they are 16, and can trust them to take over the account - you can of course withhold it untill they have grown up at 40yo, because its under your full control...

 

 

 

I have just done something very similar, opened an account with an investment company in my name with my tax rate, the only reason I didn't use a bank account is the returns are pretty average with the banks





_David_

 
 
 
 

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JimmyH
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  #3162143 21-Nov-2023 15:03
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concordnz: Having a 6yo myself,

Set up a savings account under your own bank profile, and simply label the account with their name.
(worrying about tax rates is minor in the whole scheme of things)

 

No. Tax rates are not minor in the scheme of things. For what is being talked about here they matter, thanks to the power of compound interest.

 

Since I'm home sick (and bored stiff) I ran some quick numbers - assuming a 2 year old, $30 a week (=$1,560 a year), and a 5.5% term deposit rate. Because I couldn't be bothered with intricate modelling I just assumed a 1 year term deposit, with the whole year's $1,560 contribution being added to it at the end of each year, and interest compounding when it rolls over.

 

If this happened at the lowest tax rate (10.5%) then after 16 years (when they are 18) the term deposit would have reached $43,570 - $28,080 of contributions and $15,491 in reinvested interest. But if it was done in a trust at a 39% tax rate then the balance would only have reached $37,719.

 

The difference is nearly $6,000 ($5,851 in my spreadsheet). So it's worth choosing a tax-efficient structure.


David321

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  #3162297 22-Nov-2023 07:00
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JimmyH:

 

concordnz: Having a 6yo myself,

Set up a savings account under your own bank profile, and simply label the account with their name.
(worrying about tax rates is minor in the whole scheme of things)

 

No. Tax rates are not minor in the scheme of things. For what is being talked about here they matter, thanks to the power of compound interest.

 

Since I'm home sick (and bored stiff) I ran some quick numbers - assuming a 2 year old, $30 a week (=$1,560 a year), and a 5.5% term deposit rate. Because I couldn't be bothered with intricate modelling I just assumed a 1 year term deposit, with the whole year's $1,560 contribution being added to it at the end of each year, and interest compounding when it rolls over.

 

If this happened at the lowest tax rate (10.5%) then after 16 years (when they are 18) the term deposit would have reached $43,570 - $28,080 of contributions and $15,491 in reinvested interest. But if it was done in a trust at a 39% tax rate then the balance would only have reached $37,719.

 

The difference is nearly $6,000 ($5,851 in my spreadsheet). So it's worth choosing a tax-efficient structure.

 

 

 

 

That is a decent difference, however I had to factor the difference between 10.5% (child PIR) and 28% (my PIR), although I do not remember the numbers it was a small enough difference that we took the option of having it in my name, as the extra cost was worth it to remain in control of the money when she turns 18, it may have been around 5-7k, which in time with inflation would be maybe 3-4k of todays money.





_David_

concordnz
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  #3162339 22-Nov-2023 09:09
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.

wellygary
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  #3162350 22-Nov-2023 10:34
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concordnz: 

Don't set something up using their IRD number.
(you lose the ability to do stuff if you do that)

 

 

As their Parent Guardian you have full control over their assets until they reach the legal age of maturity, (whether it be 16 or 18, or whatever)

 

Getting them "in the system" is a useful thing to do as it will make their future lives easier as the level of complexity around AML for getting bank accounts only seems to be getting more difficult, 

 

"proof" of address is becoming a real PITA

 

https://newsroom.co.nz/2023/05/29/backpacker-bank-accounts-hit-by-anti-money-laundering-rules/

 

 


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