xmlTVNZ take down order from sky

Forums › Home Theatre (including HTPC and EPG Collector) › xmlTVNZ take down order from sky

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#308630 18-Mar-2010 09:26

blur: Hmmm... as I said, it's really easy for people to give advice from the comfort of a forum, and when they're not getting the legal threats. When push comes to shove it won't be them digging deep.

I think we need to look at why Sky want to protect this information. My money is on the fact that it's this that makes their MySky product valuable. If we can do it on our PC then they stand to lose a huge revenue stream.

dont think its a huge revenue stream, most people using xmltvnz are just getting the free to air channels and most people using xmltvnz and pvrs dont want mysky as its too limited, there are other ways to get epg data.

personally i only use tv3 when outrageous fortune is on :) i dont watch tv anymore.

RustyGonad

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#308634 18-Mar-2010 09:40

Of course while it would cost alot of money to defend such action, might be about time someone chucked some questions towards the commerce commission, asking about the anti competitive nature of our largest broadcaster. The more people who ask questions the better...

It won't cost much to ask why they are undertaking anti competitive behaviour in order to preserve their monopoly on the provision of set-top boxes for the service they provide.

May not get anywhere but it will sure let them know what we think... Sky are well aware of the power of the "regulator"...

Probably well worth as many people as possible sending an email to Jonathan Coleman as well, questioning the legality and the "morality" of this behaviour. Doing this is entirely free.

There's a line out there somewhere, where public good overrides commercial interests, especially when they are in a effective monopoly situtation.

Just to provide a bit of "balance"....

tr3v

234 posts

Master Geek

#308677 18-Mar-2010 11:23

Reven,

I don't understand what it is that is hosted by you that offends Sky? My understanding was that xmltvnz.exe just went directly to the various sources which are in fact public web pages, and extract the guides from the HTML.

Or is there something that will no longer work should you disable some service on a server somewhere? I guess, what I am asking is, will xmltvnz.exe continue to work independently, peer-to-peer?

You should start a PayPal account for your lawyer fees. And/or distribute your souce code, so it can go viral :-D

Cheers, tr3v

PS. I will never never buy a mySky box - in fact I will cancel any subscription if I cannot get a EPG feed.

reven

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#308684 18-Mar-2010 11:33

i would need a lot of money for legal fees, and honestly i dont want to get into a legal fight with them.

xmltvnz by itself doesnt do anything illegal. doesnt breach any copyright info or anything at all.

xmltvnz combined with a configuration file, and it can download epg from sites. but it can download anything from any site and put it into a xmltv file.

the only thing i would be forced to take down (or modify) is the configuration file. which could go viral, and let people host/update themselves and keep it away from xmltvnz/me.

im thinking about putting xmltvnz up on google code and making it open source, since it actually can be very useful to other countries etc. its easy to add sources/channels and i just need to slightly modify for it to check another host for a configuration file.

so xmltvnz would be a dummy app, and you specify in a settings file where you want to check for config file updates. so someone in sweden could specify a swedish server for their tv shows. its a lot easier to use than write a whole new python script (which most xmltv stuff is done by).

the markers file basically just uses regex's to find everything.

freitasm

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#308687 18-Mar-2010 11:38

Probably those other sites have a license to show the guide not to distribute it. He doesn't have a license to scrap that content.

blur

384 posts

Ultimate Geek

#308690 18-Mar-2010 11:45

freitasm: Probably those other sites have a license to show the guide not to distribute it. He doesn't have a license to scrap that content.

Exactly... I'm amused by these people who want to contribute 10 bucks to sit back and watch Reven get hung out to dry!

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kyhwana2

2566 posts

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#308691 18-Mar-2010 11:52

freitasm: Probably those other sites have a license to show the guide not to distribute it. He doesn't have a license to scrap that content.

Showing it IS distributing it?

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MikeyPI

450 posts

Ultimate Geek

#308692 18-Mar-2010 11:52

Re: the confidential part, thats b/s as then you couldn't share it with a lawyer. It has to be court ordered, or a signed NDA or Confidentiality Agreement. (but if you reproduce, dont use their name or image)!

blur

384 posts

Ultimate Geek

#308695 18-Mar-2010 11:54

kyhwana2:
freitasm: Probably those other sites have a license to show the guide not to distribute it. He doesn't have a license to scrap that content.

Showing it IS distributing it?

Not at all - what Reven's application does actually stores it on the local machine, which enables it to be distributed. Digital theft if you like. It then manipulates it enabling it to be used in different and unauthorised ways.

This is not as simple as people might think

kyhwana2

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#308714 18-Mar-2010 12:42

blur:
kyhwana2:
freitasm: Probably those other sites have a license to show the guide not to distribute it. He doesn't have a license to scrap that content.

Showing it IS distributing it?

Not at all - what Reven's application does actually stores it on the local machine, which enables it to be distributed. Digital theft if you like. It then manipulates it enabling it to be used in different and unauthorised ways.

This is not as simple as people might think

Viewing it with a web browser or something similar causes it to be stored on the local machine, which enables it to be distributed, ie theft?

ObidiahSlope

260 posts

Ultimate Geek

#308718 18-Mar-2010 12:56

Contact their threat utterer and tell him that you have received comments that any enforcement action that they undertake may not succeed if challenged.

Make a without prejudice offer to remove any SKY logos or graphics but to otherwise continue unchanged, and see how they respond.

Obsequious hypocrite

reven

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#308721 18-Mar-2010 12:59

yeah but its showing it in the way they intended/granted rights to view it.

xmltvnz alters that output to a different format. which they havent given permission to do.

they do have the right to force me to remove their channels from the config file i host, which i have done (actually ive removed every channel/source for the time being).

but im fairly certain they can't do anything about xmltvnz itself, since it can be used legally by other sources. its got nothing to do with sky/nz in directly (other than "nz" in its name).

i think im just going to have to stop hosting a config file with all their channels in it. just waiting to hear back to their lawyers (they respond very slowly, as all lawyers do..., just need a black and white answer....)

and if they agree to that, ill alter xmltvnz a little and make it more "global" and just host it free, donations dont even pay the hosting fees anymore (most people who want it already have it)

reven

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#308722 18-Mar-2010 13:01

ObidiahSlope: Contact their threat utterer and tell him that you have received comments that any enforcement action that they undertake may not succeed if challenged.

Make a without prejudice offer to remove any SKY logos or graphics but to otherwise continue unchanged, and see how they respond.

i dont actually host any sky logos or graphics :) i never wanted host icons in fear of breaching copyright :)

blur

384 posts

Ultimate Geek

#308734 18-Mar-2010 13:40

kyhwana2:
blur:
kyhwana2:
freitasm: Probably those other sites have a license to show the guide not to distribute it. He doesn't have a license to scrap that content.

Showing it IS distributing it?

Not at all - what Reven's application does actually stores it on the local machine, which enables it to be distributed. Digital theft if you like. It then manipulates it enabling it to be used in different and unauthorised ways.

This is not as simple as people might think

Viewing it with a web browser or something similar causes it to be stored on the local machine, which enables it to be distributed, ie theft?

I'm sorry, but this is exactly the "technical" arguments that I was talking about previously. Believe me, if this was your defence, you'd be sunk.

Simply viewing the sky guide on-line is fine, and it is accepted that it will be cached by your web browser. However Reven's application "scalps" the content of the sky guide and stores it in xml format on a users machine. It is then changed and reproduced as an EPG without sky's permission. Remember, they own this information.

Reven is the author of an application which sole purpose is to infringe copyright. My feeling is that this could easily go the same way as the Pirate Bay trial. They too had some cleaver arguments, but sadly the reality was the Pirate Bay exists for one purpose and one purpose only. That is to re-distribute copyrighted material. The judge in turn found in favour of the record companies and handed out a hefty damages award.

Please don't get me wrong here either, I don't really have any views either way. I'm just trying to add some commercial reality to this thread.

reven

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#308740 18-Mar-2010 13:46

Reven is the author of an application which sole purpose is to infringe copyright. My feeling is that this could easily go the same way as the Pirate Bay trial. They too had some cleaver arguments, but sadly the reality was the Pirate Bay exists for one purpose and one purpose only. That is to re-distribute copyrighted material. The judge in turn found in favour of the record companies and handed out a hefty damages award

xmltvnz sole purpose isnt to infringe copyright. i got permission from triangle a few years back (when they redid their site) to use their data. been in contact with people from mediaworks and saturn to use their data.

so xmltvnz can be legal, only if its configured to take info from a site that is copyright is doing something that it shouldnt.

but once again, thats the same as anyone writing a python script to grab this info, xmltvnz is a language basically and the configuration file is the script/program. sky couldnt tell python to stop making that language because a script is doing something they dont want it to do, but they could tell the person hosting/making that script to stop and remove it.

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