RIP Windows Media Center

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#1299317 6-May-2015 18:19

mcraenz: I don't get it. In MediaPortal it's decoded on the fly through MDAPI and saved unencrypted to the disk. Why would you want to do it after the fact?

because "reasons"

Richard rich.ms

sm250

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#1299329 6-May-2015 18:30

mcraenz: IMO using a movie streaming service without 5.1 is basically useless.

Lightbox isn't 5.1 :-(

mm1352000

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#1299332 6-May-2015 18:47

richms: Mysky has to do it after the fact when you playback.

I could be wrong, but my guess is that a MySky decrypts the NDS and re-encrypts with a different system that ties the recording to the box.

richms

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#1299335 6-May-2015 18:49

Ive not actually bothered to try a diff card in a mysky box to see if its able to play something thats recoreded etc.

But as we dont yet have card pairing yet in NZ I dont know what difference that would make.

Richard rich.ms

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#1299339 6-May-2015 18:59

richms: Ive not actually bothered to try a diff card in a mysky box to see if its able to play something thats recoreded etc.

Like I said, I think the recording would be tied to the box (hardware), not the card.

reven

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#1299370 6-May-2015 19:46

mcraenz: Can Kodi do NetFlix, TVNZ/TV3/Choice On-demand, lightbox, YouTube and TED talks?
Including 5.1 audio for the services that offer it?

it does netflix, youtube, ted talks. only 720p netflix due to PC streaming, but it is 5.1

theres heaps of other plugins too.

theUtmost

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#1299429 6-May-2015 20:37

reven: it always surprises me (not saying its wrong, just surprising) that people use WMC or similar for music playback. to me this is very slow and I don't want to have TV on when listening to music. I've switched from mp3s to all streaming music, using sonos which I can control from PCs, tablets, my phone, even my watch (I love playback via the android wear). searching for music to play via a PC is a million times better than a remote. searching via voice on a tablet/phone is brilliant. using the phones keyboard etc is also better than a remote.

well in my opinion.

I get why microsoft are discontinuing it, theres not a lot of money (if any?) in it for them. They can sell their streaming services (movies, xbox music) and get people to use xbox, xbox supports a lot of this functionality now (well in america).

people should really give kodi another chance, it really can do everything you want, if you need help, ask in the forums, if you have suggestions, post them in the forums.

no TV here at all, but I do have a 24" LCD computer monitor I bought years ago at cost.
Happy to leave that on whilst playing back music - it's totally silent or I would have got rid of it.
I was pretty unimpressed with audio quality from Sonos and other streaming options and as a general rule don't like anything that uses DLNA/UPNP methods - so slow and unresponsive! Give me a proper renderer and storage via CIFS/SMB every day of the week.

I have young kids who ALSO drive the system no probs.
So yeah I don't want to have to either give them my phone or tablet to drive it, or to have to give them their own phone/tablet just to drive the system.
Battery will always be flat etc...
We'll have to agree to disagree on the physical remote vs smart device aspect here I think

I agree completely with your take on why MS are discontinuing WMC - nailed it.

I have given Kodi (XBMC) many chances, most recently a month ago and will continue to do so.
Have been using a HTPC as primary playback device for everything for over a decade now, so I have looked at MANY alternatives over the years.
You are right in a sense that Kodi can do everything I want (since i don't care about the TV-limitations raised by others) - I just don't like how it does it!
I think I must be the only person on the planet who uses WMC exactly how I do, so I don't hold out much hope of getting such "fringe" use-case methods covered by asking the devs to code complete changes to how Kodi works, but, maybe it's worth a(nother) go!
Cheers

Sharesies

Trade NZ and US shares and funds with Sharesies (affiliate link).

richms

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#1299444 6-May-2015 20:54

I dont want devices that index and store that on the devices, because they tend to be slow and the indexes get out of date.

Then I tried plex. And it put over a million tiny files in the user account of the user that it was running as on the server machine. Seems each track got a copy of artwork and some other metadata in files for that track.

So I am back to just using foobar2000 and regulaly rescanning the shares. It seems the fastest of any on lousy hardware, but still takes 30 seconds or so to search the library for things, thats with loads of swap thrashing too.

Richard rich.ms

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#1299550 6-May-2015 23:06

SJB:
mm1352000:
sm250: I think the problem would be pulling out all of the required pieces and making them work.

I haven't heard anything about MS changing or pulling out their DX9, BDA, DirectShow or MediaFoundation frameworks. If the news is true (I'm still highly sceptical), then I suspect the reasons for pulling the plug are political and/or monetary rather than technical. For example:

.NET 3.5 - which I've been told is the framework that the WMC business logic uses - is going EOL/EOS, and they can't support it over the lifetime of W10
They want to [finally] pull DirectShow at some point, and this requires cutting all the components that have any dependency on it.

I'm not sure about the version of .Net being relevant. If it's compiled for .Net 3.5 it should work on later versions of the framework.

Looking at the Win7 version of WMC with ILSpy the code comments mention .Net 2.0 which I would have thought was EOL/EOS some time ago.

They are going to have a hell of a job to get rid of DirectShow as well. Do you know of any Media Foundation projects apart those from MS itself?

I think you are right to be sceptical about them pulling the plug.

I cant speak officially, I haven't been given an official position. I don't know the usage numbers past or present, I don't know past or future plans. Everything below is speculation or guesses made on posts i've read from sources *outside* the company.

what are possible reasons not to bring WMC into Win 10?
- having to support as a solution 'forever' (this version of windows is continuously upgraded for the life of the device its installed on, windows 7/8 got support lifecycle with end dates)
- having to support the peculiarities of broadcast tv across several markets - no single standard for signal -or- guide data
- cost of purchasing worldwide guide data from broadcasters (rolling your own via epgcollector is an enthusiast play, not a mainstream play)
- some of the 3rd party embedded technology and licenses are, I believe, very expensive and it may cost more to license than can be recovered by selling 'add-on skus' (which no-one likes). you might ask how other open source solutions handle this? they often require 'external codecs' which you either purchase separately (like buying cyberlink DVD, for a similar price to an oem windows license), or you use an unlicenced reverse-engineered codec
- the 'world' is turning towards on demand streaming solutions, focus on those instead
- smart TVs and smart STBs are 'default' in the space, WMC is/was more enthusiast (but could have been so much more!)

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sm250

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#1299552 6-May-2015 23:14

Regs:
- the 'world' is turning towards on demand streaming solutions, focus on those instead

I think that is the key one (but I hadn't thought about the constant updating issue before, that makes sense), the real value in Windows Media Centre vs anything else is only the recording capabilities. In New Zealand you had to do all sorts of things like epgcollector, so it wasn't something someone could just pick up and use. Over time recorded TV is going to be less and less relevant, especially once everyone has UFB.

I've had a quick look at kodi and mediaportal this afternoon and neither of them are a patch on Windows Media Centre, even just looking at music they seem to be folder based rather than collection based. Can't find a quick way to play all my music shuffled for example.

But for dealing with music and videos I could roll my own WPF or WinRt solution quite quickly, it's really just Recorded TV/Live TV that can't be easily replicated.

Stefan

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#1299556 6-May-2015 23:45

sm250: I've had a quick look at kodi and mediaportal this afternoon and neither of them are a patch on Windows Media Centre, even just looking at music they seem to be folder based rather than collection based.

Then you haven't looked thoroughly enough.
MediaPortal can operate either as "folder based" (AKA shares view)... or "collection based" (AKA database view):
http://wiki.team-mediaportal.com/1_MEDIAPORTAL_1/14_Using_MediaPortal/01_Basics/Views

In both cases you need to specify the folders where your music is stored:
http://wiki.team-mediaportal.com/1_MEDIAPORTAL_1/141_Configuration/MediaPortal_Configuration/3_Music/1_Music_Folders

To use database view MediaPortal needs to import information about your music:
http://wiki.team-mediaportal.com/1_MEDIAPORTAL_1/15_Customization/00_Configuration/3_Music/2_Music_Database

It really isn't particularly difficult.

[edit: Link the links. Is Geekzone the only forum that doesn't do this automatically now?]

sm250

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#1299567 7-May-2015 00:17

mm1352000:
sm250: I've had a quick look at kodi and mediaportal this afternoon and neither of them are a patch on Windows Media Centre, even just looking at music they seem to be folder based rather than collection based.

Then you haven't looked thoroughly enough.
MediaPortal can operate either as "folder based" (AKA shares view)... or "collection based" (AKA database view):
http://wiki.team-mediaportal.com/1_MEDIAPORTAL_1/14_Using_MediaPortal/01_Basics/Views

In both cases you need to specify the folders where your music is stored:
http://wiki.team-mediaportal.com/1_MEDIAPORTAL_1/141_Configuration/MediaPortal_Configuration/3_Music/1_Music_Folders

To use database view MediaPortal needs to import information about your music:
http://wiki.team-mediaportal.com/1_MEDIAPORTAL_1/15_Customization/00_Configuration/3_Music/2_Music_Database

It really isn't particularly difficult.

[edit: Link the links. Is Geekzone the only forum that doesn't do this automatically now?]

Thanks for the links. I did in fact accidentally discover the database view. But as you can see from my image here: https://cdn.geekzone.co.nz/imagessubs/b7c8a630e8e89b9feedec2a69e9df2a8.jpg about half of the artists don't have any sort of image, yet when you go into the folder you can find an image. And from that page I can find no way to play, let alone shuffle. According to the documentation should be able to press P, but that just brings up the menu...

I also haven't been able to find a way to play videos at 1.3 speed like you can on Windows Media Centre, maybe I'm missing that as well.

Stefan

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#1299568 7-May-2015 00:23

@Regs
Sorry, I don't buy most of your reasons.

Regs: - having to support as a solution 'forever' (this version of windows is continuously upgraded for the life of the device its installed on, windows 7/8 got support lifecycle with end dates)

Are you saying that MS will commit to support anything that is included in W10 "forever"? That seems unlikely... and therefore I don't understand why MS couldn't include WMC until they aren't willing/able to support it any longer, just like any other component.

Regs: - having to support the peculiarities of broadcast tv across several markets - no single standard for signal -or- guide data

...but WMC in it's current form already handles this reasonably well. To be clear: most of the comments I've read have said it would be nice to have WMC updated, but many would be satisfied with an unchanged solution.

Regs: - cost of purchasing worldwide guide data from broadcasters (rolling your own via epgcollector is an enthusiast play, not a mainstream play)

I'm going to assume this comment mainly applies for the US and Canada, because reasonable guide data is available from within the broadcast stream almost everywhere else in the world (...and WMC supports the most common in-band guide data format - DVB EIT). So, people outside the US and Canada can use in-band data, and people in the US and Canada can pay extra for their guide data. The costs are not unreasonable. An existing guide data service subscription can be acquired for $25 USD per year.

Regs: - some of the 3rd party embedded technology and licenses are, I believe, very expensive and it may cost more to license than can be recovered by selling 'add-on skus' (which no-one likes).

I'm not sure that I agree with your assessment that nobody likes add-on SKUs. Putting that aside though...
When MS announced their plans for WMC in W8/8.1, it was stated that the costs for the pack would be in line with the the marginal costs of such licenses (...and guide data as well?).
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2012/05/03/making-windows-media-center-available-in-windows-8.aspx

Therefore, I don't understand how this reason should prevent MS from offering WMC with W10 when it didn't prevent MS from offering WMC with W8/8.1.

Regs:- the 'world' is turning towards on demand streaming solutions, focus on those instead

I could accept this reason if MS were working on a solution to integrate these streaming services into one convenient interface... but so far such a solution hasn't been revealed.

Regs:- smart TVs and smart STBs are 'default' in the space, WMC is/was more enthusiast (but could have been so much more!)

Different solutions for different markets I think. I'd like to think there is room for both.

mm1352000

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#1299569 7-May-2015 00:30

sm250: I did in fact accidentally discover the database view. But as you can see from my image here: https://cdn.geekzone.co.nz/imagessubs/b7c8a630e8e89b9feedec2a69e9df2a8.jpg about half of the artists don't have any sort of image, yet when you go into the folder you can find an image.

If you have images in the folders then tick the "Use for thumb creation: ...folder.jpg" option in the music database import configuration. It's explained in the link I previously posted.

sm250: And from that page I can find no way to play, let alone shuffle. According to the documentation should be able to press P, but that just brings up the menu...

Play a folder?

sm250: I also haven't been able to find a way to play videos at 1.3 speed like you can on Windows Media Centre, maybe I'm missing that as well.

As far as I know that's not possible in MediaPortal... but what do you use such a function for?

mm1352000

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#1299577 7-May-2015 01:03

Last post before bed...

@sm250
I don't normally use MP for music, but I was able to import my library (~5500 FLAC files) into the database within a few minutes. Like you, I have pictures in each album folder. These were picked up during import because I ticked the previously mentioned folder.jpg option.

Within MP I'm able to play any folder by focussing the folder and pressing P. No idea why that's not working for you.

I can shuffle by viewing the current playlist (F1), then selecting the shuffle option in the menu:
http://wiki.team-mediaportal.com/1_MEDIAPORTAL_1/14_Using_MediaPortal/5_Music/3_Play_Music/Music_Playlists#Menu_Options

I'd be happy to answer any further questions you may have... except that we're a bit off topic for this thread. If you're really serious about trying MediaPortal then you should find all the information you need in the wiki:
http://wiki.team-mediaportal.com/1_MEDIAPORTAL_1/14_Using_MediaPortal/5_Music

Failing that, the MediaPortal forum is available for questions etc.

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