70 inch TV decision please, do I need 4K?

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#1472166 15-Jan-2016 19:26

Masterpiece:
Dunnersfella: .

On a personal level, I've had an issue with a redmere HDMI cable and a UHD capable Panasonic when run through a new (HDCP 2.2 capable) AVR.
I'll be interested to see how many cables can handle the new UHD Blu-ray's... many cables bring big claims to the game, how many can back it up?

I have a hunch that a lot of marginal setups will be unmitigated disasters, but hey, that's the price early adopters will pay.

Was this Redmere an "Active" or passive type HDMI?

The active types have a chip to do magic to the signal, some are 1 direction orientation cables.

Passive, sourced from a Chch supplier.
It didn't matter what way it was implemented, it only worked when it was removed from the system.
Once the product was identified as the problem (the cheapest in the entire system by far) I put it down to experience and moved on.

MrFlower

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#1472184 15-Jan-2016 19:58

I endup with a Sony 4K. Couldn't decide on the speaker(need an update on them) so bought myself a set of Dynaudio Contour.

Display: Panasonic P50V10Z
Receiver: Yamaha RXV3900
Source: CDX697, YPS11, PS3 250GB

Main Front: Wharfedale Evo 2 40
Centre: 2 x Wharfedale Evo 2-8
Rear surround: Wharfedale Evo 40
Subwoofer: YST-SW1500

Audioquest type 6 speaker cable
Antipodes Weka interconnect

Masterpiece

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#1472296 15-Jan-2016 23:10

richms: They are single direction cables. They also seem to have issues with the power on order that are not present on other cables. Possibly solved in later ones, but who wants to remove "cables" because of a software problem in them.

I would like to see a low cost HDMI over fiber solution come out, so no worries of length or upgradability of the inwall stuff. I have a feeling cat6 extenders will not cut it for 8k whenever that makes it out off the CES floor and into noel leemings.

I got this link in an email, but cost is $300usd +

Fibre HDMI
http://www.celeritytek.com/product-DFO.html

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richms

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#1472305 15-Jan-2016 23:25

Yeah, something like that. Just have to wait till the chinese ones start getting made and cheaply, like they have with the HDMI over SDI and cat6 boxes.

Richard rich.ms

cruxis

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#1472577 16-Jan-2016 12:49

I was looking at a 4k TV too. But was not to sure about the refreash rates. They TV said it as "True 100 hz" Does that mean that it will display the full 100 FPS at 4k, or do they use some hokey pokey to fill in the frames to inflate the hz.

Example TV hooked to a gaming PC running a pair of titans Outputing 4k at 100 fps, playing witcher 3. It will display all 100 fps?

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#1472592 16-Jan-2016 13:26

They all inflate the frames as they only take 50/60 on HDMI. True 100 means it makes the in-between ones up rather than just blanking the backlight twice for each frame. It will be 120 hz when given 60 or 24 hz content so I have no idea why so many brands under sell them by quoting the rate for pal video input.

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Dunnersfella

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#1472611 16-Jan-2016 14:14

Basically - it's another marketing phrase.
'Back in the day' you had 50 or 100Hz TV's...
Then the likes of Samsung/Sony/LG etc came out with phrases like 200HzCMR or 400HzCMR or... 1600Hz.
They'd then use a dash of marketing and a dash of reality to justify the number.

They'd note that a 50Hz TV with back blight blinking would be superior to a straight, bottom of the line 50Hz set.
So they'd call that a 100HzCMR (clear motion rate)... even though, it wasn't quite up to spec with a 'True 100Hz' TV.
The manufacturers argument was that a 2 litre engine in a Toyota Carolla would be a different beast to a 2 litre highly tuned engine in a Lotus... so it needed to be referenced differently.
In reality, it confused / hoodwinked consumers.

Super8

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#1474149 18-Jan-2016 21:15

networkn:
Masterpiece: Sigh... I hate the 4k label, it's 2160p

I believe some caution needs to be exercised with purchases currently, there will be some compatibility issues with displays and peripherals until the delivery system standardizes.

Just consider that from HDMI1.0 which took a number of years to settle too 1.4, HDMI2.0 became 2.0a recently to include HDR, but really there is no content yet, not unto the players actually come to market, which may be 2~3rd quarter this year. There will be revisions once these come to market, that is the harsh reality, but I see obsolescence with displays right now.

Another issue with HDMI, I'm just testing a video processor which is a 4k in and output device. It is becoming apparent cables are going to be a problem for some. The new HDMI 2.0a 4k chips are sensitive to cables, where active cables seem to work best. There are cheap active cables, so it isn't so much a cost thing but a type thing. Can your wall run HDMI cable handle 18Gbps?? Many are just 9Gbps. I'm have trouble with a RX-A3040 receiver in this mix as well.

With the above, be aware that currently Rec2020 is not being implemented yet other than resolution which is for the most of us an up scaled video processor(if you have one) or display result. Currently you only have Rec709 at 8bit with more resolution.

When the players come, with a 2160p source it could well be 10bit at true 422 or even 444

Personally I'm not going 2160p until the transport and some content is on the shelves.

Oh the size and distance thing, I sit 3m from a 106in screen and it's verging on being to far(about 30degrees viewing angle). For 2160p I'll probably go scope 2.35~2.4 out to 120in+, and stay at 3m distance.
The problem with displays even 75~80in types, is that to appreciate the 2160p material you need to be about 2m from the screen. From memory roughly 50degrees viewing angle. Frankly I find panels uncomfortable at close ranges.

However as others allude to that they find the viewing distance thing difficult, part of this is explained in processing, steps and increments in grey scale with correctly adjusted white balance and ETOF(gamma in old terms) convince your brain of greater sharpness, detail and even more apparent colour.

Just some things to consider at the moment.

So much wrong with this post I am not sure where to start, so I won't.

Why do you need a 18Gbps HDMI cable? Even 9Gbps?

A 4K DCP delivered to a cinema has a maximum data rate of 250Mbit/s. The majority of releases are 2K at 125Mbit/s (or below) Do you expect UHD blu ray encoding to surpass this?

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#1474281 19-Jan-2016 01:29

Super8:
networkn:
So much wrong with this post I am not sure where to start, so I won't.
Why do you need a 18Gbps HDMI cable? Even 9Gbps? A 4K DCP delivered to a cinema has a maximum data rate of 250Mbit/s. The majority of releases are 2K at 125Mbit/s (or below) Do you expect UHD blu ray encoding to surpass this?

Because the content is decompresed in the player or PC, has other stuff added and is then transported to the display as uncompressed RGB or YUV video, not an encoded mpeg bitstream.

Richard rich.ms

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#1474318 19-Jan-2016 08:31

richms:
Super8:
networkn:
So much wrong with this post I am not sure where to start, so I won't.
Why do you need a 18Gbps HDMI cable? Even 9Gbps? A 4K DCP delivered to a cinema has a maximum data rate of 250Mbit/s. The majority of releases are 2K at 125Mbit/s (or below) Do you expect UHD blu ray encoding to surpass this?
Because the content is decompresed in the player or PC, has other stuff added and is then transported to the display as uncompressed RGB or YUV video, not an encoded mpeg bitstream.

Yes there is a difference between transporting the compressed file, and the raw data to the TV/Receiver once that file has been 'unzipped' /decoded by the player device.

Super8

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#1474359 19-Jan-2016 09:57

Jaxson:
richms:
Super8:
networkn:
So much wrong with this post I am not sure where to start, so I won't.
Why do you need a 18Gbps HDMI cable? Even 9Gbps? A 4K DCP delivered to a cinema has a maximum data rate of 250Mbit/s. The majority of releases are 2K at 125Mbit/s (or below) Do you expect UHD blu ray encoding to surpass this?
Because the content is decompresed in the player or PC, has other stuff added and is then transported to the display as uncompressed RGB or YUV video, not an encoded mpeg bitstream.
Yes there is a difference between transporting the compressed file, and the raw data to the TV/Receiver once that file has been 'unzipped' /decoded by the player device.

Had no idea the overhead was so high!

So what have they spec'd for UHD blu ray? 8bit 4.2.0? or will you get 10bit 4.2.2?

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#1474368 19-Jan-2016 10:11

Super8:
Jaxson:
richms:
Super8:
networkn:
So much wrong with this post I am not sure where to start, so I won't.
Why do you need a 18Gbps HDMI cable? Even 9Gbps? A 4K DCP delivered to a cinema has a maximum data rate of 250Mbit/s. The majority of releases are 2K at 125Mbit/s (or below) Do you expect UHD blu ray encoding to surpass this?
Because the content is decompresed in the player or PC, has other stuff added and is then transported to the display as uncompressed RGB or YUV video, not an encoded mpeg bitstream.
Yes there is a difference between transporting the compressed file, and the raw data to the TV/Receiver once that file has been 'unzipped' /decoded by the player device.

Had no idea the overhead was so high!
So what have they spec'd for UHD blu ray? 8bit 4.2.0? or will you get 10bit 4.2.2?

8 bit 4:4:4 60fps and 16bit 4:4:4 at 30FPS

Thus need for 18Gbps

Masterpiece

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#1474444 19-Jan-2016 11:27

Uncompressed UHD(3840*2160) video requires substantially more headroom than (1920*1080)

There are a few calculators floating about, although they appear to be some minor differences in results, however similar.

Example
(Source for info here) http://www.extron.com/product/videotools.aspx

This is typically what you have now, and I have had failures with cables!
1920*1080 @24hz 8bit 4:4:4 = 2.23Gbps

This is the future.
(settings for example)
SMPTE/CEA
3840*2160 UHD

24hz 8bit 4:4:4 = 8.91Gbps
24hz 10bit 4:4:4 = 11.14Gbps
24hz 12bit 4:4:4 = 13.36Gbps
24hz 16bit 4:4:4 = 17.82Gbps

50/60hz 8bit 4:2:0 = 8.91Gbps
50/60hz 8bit 4:4:4 = 17.82Gbps

50/60hz 10bit 4:2:0 = 11.14Gbps
50/60hz 10bit 4:4:4 = 22.28Gbps

50/60hz 12bit 4:2:0 = 13.36Gbps
50/60hz 12bit 4:4:4 = 26.73Gbps

50/60hz 16bit 4:2:0 = 17.82Gbps
50/60hz 16bit 4:4:4 = 35.64Gbps

An important note is that many calculate pixel resolution only, but they miss there is blanking pixels, as per the calculator provides.

24hz is 1660 H-Blank + 3840 active
50hz is 1440 H-Blank + 3840 active
60hz is 560 H-Blank + 3840 active

All Hz is 90 V-Blank + 2160 active

One of the issues I foresee is lack of setup capability in source devices to tune your bandwidth limit based upon your transport(cable capability).

As much as most will want high frame rates, I believe bit depth and Chroma sub sample is far more important to have higher. Ie 10~12bit and 4:4:4

The bit depth will show the gradations and smooth imagery, 8bit will lead to banding(as we see now since we have 8bit presently).

A reminder, Blueray disks currently contain 1920*1080 @ 24hz 4:2:0

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Masterpiece

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#1474462 19-Jan-2016 11:40

Oh I forgot, HDR(High Dynamic Range) will add more bandwidth to the previous post.

The numbers are still subjective/loose, however estimates are roughly 20% additional to required headroom.
8.91 will become something like 10.7Gbps

So like I mentioned previously, please consider complete source to display requirements when thinking of the future.

Me:"I'm not a robot!"

ET: "Maybe; you have some freewill, but you chose your path by arrangement"

Me "That sounds like a program with no freewill?"

ET: "We will catch up when you end this cycle"

Me: "Sounds like a 'KPI'!"

ET: "Did you read the terms and conditions?"

Me: .....

richms

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#1474501 19-Jan-2016 12:22

Isnt the 12 and 16 bits what is needed to support HDR? Ive paid so little attention to it since it will be ages before it makes its way to PC gaming. Where is is actually needed..

Richard rich.ms

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