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53 posts

Master Geek


# 255978 9-Sep-2019 11:28
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Well it looks like my 15 year old Marantz SR7300OSE has finally died. Went pop last night while watching a movie. I am sure it is repairable, but I am starting to think it might be time to look at something new. Sound formats have come and gone in the time I have had this thing so I feel a little out of touch about what is good now.

 

I am after a mid level receiver, that sounds great, with enough power to push my B&W floorstanders, and the ability to do Atmos etc at some point in the future.

 

My research so far has lead me to believe my best options would by the Yamaha Aventage, or Denon AVR-X series, with the advantage slightly towards the Denon.

 

My Marantz was a pretty basic 6.1 model, but was pretty powerful at 110W per channel. To get that type of power it looks like I have to go for a 9.2 channel model or above, the 7.2 models seem to top out at under 95W. The space we have doesn't allow for more surround speakers, I was thinking of possibly adding a couple of ceiling speakers for Atmos, but can't see the need for much more than 7.2. I also remember reading at some point how some manufacturers were sacrificing amplifier performance for the sake of new features in the newer receivers. Is this actually a problem? My main concern is audio performance, things like built in music streaming is much less important if not redundant.

 

Another option I am looking at is buying the Denon 7.2 ARV-X2600H receiver and adding a Stereo amp for the front L + R, but this will probably end up cost me more than the AVR-X3600H.

 

I guess I am just looking for some feedback on the current receiver market. I don't want to spend more than I need to, but if I can buy something I will be happy with for the next 15 years (not likely lol) I am willing to spend a bit more. 


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326 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2313542 9-Sep-2019 13:25
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Just to clarify, how many speakers do you have now (2,3,6,7,16!)? You only mentioned B & W floorstanders, but then talk about "doesn't allow for more surround speakers"?

 

As you have no doubt noticed, most manufacturers shy away from publishing their all channels driven power ratings, but really, unless you are have some real thirsty speakers playing real loud, most receivers these days will be good enough to deliver enough juice to drive their advertised number of channels. Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Onkyo, Pioneer are all pretty good these days.

 

If your budget is ~$2k-ish (estimating on the mention of the 2600h), you could look at Marantz as well, either the 7.2/5.1.2 SR5013 for $1299 or 9.2/5.1.4 SR6013 for $2399.  Dedicated amp per channel, pre-outs, Audyssey room correction (XT32 on the SR6013), all the major formats supported etc; pretty much feature equivalent with Denon models, but I find their price can be a little bit sharper.

 

You could also save a few bucks and get last year's AVR-2500xh for $999 with an eye to upgrading in a few years. Or the AVR-3500xh for $1999.

 

One thing to bare in mind is that a lot of models have only had minor incremental updates this year as HDMI 2.1 is apparently on the horizon for a lot of receivers in 2020, so if you were thinking of buying a new TV in the next couple of years, might want to consider that as well.


3594 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2313550 9-Sep-2019 13:33
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Re: Power it will depend on the unit of choice...

 

The Denon 2600 is 95W (2ch driven).

 

The Yamaha RXA780 is 95W (2ch driven).

 

The Yamaha 880 is 100W (2ch driven).

 

The Yamaha 1080 is rated to 110W (2ch driven) and has a bigger power supply / chasis than the 880 by a considerable margin.

 

 

 

Normally most people will go on and on about power of amplifiers etc - after all, it's not necessarily about the power of the AVR, but about the sensitivity of the speakers... But the B&W's have a nastyu habit of claiming they're '8 ohm compatible', but some models dip down closer to 3ohms.

 

If you have ample clearance on top and around the amp, this may not be an issue, but if it's a tight squeeze it will be a problem!

 

Adding a power amp to B&W floor standers is often recommended if the AVR doesn't seem to be handling the jandle, but the good news is that this doesn't need to be done straight away as all the amps you're looking at will have front channel pre-outs at a minimum and ALL can handle ATMOS to a minimum of 5.1.2... none will do 6.1 though, that format is long gone.

 

 

 

Try both brands in a store if you can - power supplies have typically become slightly smaller, but DAC quality has increased etc. The amps will often weigh less, but that's due to a whole lot less in the way of analogue connections / boards required inside.

 

Get the remotes, play with the menus, then get the apps and have a play too (if you're using the apps that is). Make your choice from there.


 
 
 
 




53 posts

Master Geek


  # 2313592 9-Sep-2019 14:36
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ShinyChrome:

 

Just to clarify, how many speakers do you have now (2,3,6,7,16!)? You only mentioned B & W floorstanders, but then talk about "doesn't allow for more surround speakers"?

 

 

Sorry should have included more specifics. Currently running 5.1. B&W 603s3's for front L+R, B&W DM600 centre speaker. The 603's are not the most efficient, so need a powerful amp to sound their best. Surrounds are smaller bookshelf speakers (can't remember the brand right now). I was running B&W 602.5s3 as surrounds at one point, but their size made them a bit inconvenient. I do plan to replace the surrounds at some point as well. There is no space behind for true rear speakers. 

 

 

As you have no doubt noticed, most manufacturers shy away from publishing their all channels driven power ratings, but really, unless you are have some real thirsty speakers playing real loud, most receivers these days will be good enough to deliver enough juice to drive their advertised number of channels. Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Onkyo, Pioneer are all pretty good these days.

 

If your budget is ~$2k-ish (estimating on the mention of the 2600h), you could look at Marantz as well, either the 7.2/5.1.2 SR5013 for $1299 or 9.2/5.1.4 SR6013 for $2399.  Dedicated amp per channel, pre-outs, Audyssey room correction (XT32 on the SR6013), all the major formats supported etc; pretty much feature equivalent with Denon models, but I find their price can be a little bit sharper.

 

You could also save a few bucks and get last year's AVR-2500xh for $999 with an eye to upgrading in a few years. Or the AVR-3500xh for $1999.

 

One thing to bare in mind is that a lot of models have only had minor incremental updates this year as HDMI 2.1 is apparently on the horizon for a lot of receivers in 2020, so if you were thinking of buying a new TV in the next couple of years, might want to consider that as well.

 

 

Thanks for mentioning the Marantz models. The SR6013 in brushed metal look pretty sweet, very similar to my old SR7300OSE which looks so good next to my TV. I hate how everything is just black now. The review sites seem to have a very narrow range of what they review now-a-days so it wan't coming up in my searches.

 

Again, I feel my ideal model is in between the SR5013 and SR6013. The number of channels of the SR5013 with the power output of the SR6013.


563 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2313673 9-Sep-2019 15:57
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Ok, not what you're asking eh, but sound bars have come a phenomenal way since you bought your Marantz, my father recently upgraded his Marantz to a Denon soundbar and wireless sub. He uses it 90% more and it's always running whereas the Marantz was just overkill especially at night (he found personally).

 

 

 

From having a chat with various salespeople in the stores, my father is far from alone, 

 

I now have the Marantz set up a 2.1 system and wow, sounds so much better than my old Logitech 2.1 it's just unbelievable haha.


326 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2313688 9-Sep-2019 16:08
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justinbyoung:

 

Sorry should have included more specifics. Currently running 5.1. B&W 603s3's for front L+R, B&W DM600 centre speaker. The 603's are not the most efficient, so need a powerful amp to sound their best. Surrounds are smaller bookshelf speakers (can't remember the brand right now). I was running B&W 602.5s3 as surrounds at one point, but their size made them a bit inconvenient. I do plan to replace the surrounds at some point as well. There is no space behind for true rear speakers. 

 

Thanks for mentioning the Marantz models. The SR6013 in brushed metal look pretty sweet, very similar to my old SR7300OSE which looks so good next to my TV. I hate how everything is just black now. The review sites seem to have a very narrow range of what they review now-a-days so it wan't coming up in my searches.

 

Again, I feel my ideal model is in between the SR5013 and SR6013. The number of channels of the SR5013 with the power output of the SR6013.

 

 

I feel you; I am only running L/C/R, but with thirsty 4ohm Emotiva's, I feel like my budget Onkyo AVR might be struggling with surrounds.

 

At least the 5013 has pre-outs, so you could always team that with a decent 2 channel amp for Front L/R and handle the surrounds onboard. But then you are almost at the price of the SR6013/Denon X3500h/Yamaha 1080, so.... choices...

 

If you can justify the upfront capital, you could always get something like the SR6013 for the higher power rating/better room correction/more channels now, and then down the line if you want to do proper Atmos with 4 height channels, and still need more power, chuck in an external amp. That's the way I was thinking of going, but still unsure if I wait until the next gen.


3594 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2313767 9-Sep-2019 17:42
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Going from B&W 603's to a sound bar would be a recipe for a bad time, mmmmmkay.

 

The sales guys at big box stores largely like sound bars because they're easy for the customer and them... remember the 'stereo guy' who used to work at Bond 'n Bond / Noel's / Harvey's? Well he was sick of low pay and moved on years ago, leaving kids who thing UE Booms are 'pretty sick' to take his place.

 

 

 

If you can compare an amp / surrounds with a soundbars - it's night and day.

 

What's more, add in a Logitech Harmony Ultimate and the amp is easier to use AND sounds far better.

 

 

 

To summarize - keep the speakers.

 

Swap out your amp.

 

 

 

Depending on what part of the country you're in, you can probably try numerous models in one day to make your decision.




53 posts

Master Geek


  # 2313768 9-Sep-2019 17:44
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The more I look the better the SR6013 looks. I see there is a new SR6104 coming, but it looks like it is more or less exactly the same as the SR6013 just with some extra features. The one that has me concerned is HDCP 2.3 support. The SR613 only support HDCP 2.2. I haven't had to deal with HDMI compatibility issues with my receiver before. Does this mean that SR6013 will stop working properly if the media companies enforce HDCP 2.3 in the future? I want to get years of use out of this thing.

 

I am using this site https://www.zkelectronics.com/receivers/ to do some comparisons between the options.


 
 
 
 




53 posts

Master Geek


  # 2313773 9-Sep-2019 17:55
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Dunnersfella:

 

Going from B&W 603's to a sound bar would be a recipe for a bad time, mmmmmkay.

 

If you can compare an amp / surrounds with a soundbars - it's night and day.

 

To summarize - keep the speakers.

 

Swap out your amp.

 

 

 

Depending on what part of the country you're in, you can probably try numerous models in one day to make your decision.

 

 

Yeah, I'm not giving up my speakers for anything. I dread going home tonight and having to watch TV using the TV's speakers.

 

 

 

I'm in Wellington. I haven't yet found anyone who stocks the Marantz and Denon's to try. Yamaha seems very popular down here.




53 posts

Master Geek


  # 2313776 9-Sep-2019 18:08
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Found a place in Wellington that is selling the SR6012 for $2000 https://www.abtec.co.nz/product/Marantz_SR6012. I wonder how different the SR6013 and SR6012 are.


326 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2313781 9-Sep-2019 18:22
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justinbyoung:

Found a place in Wellington that is selling the SR6012 for $2000 https://www.abtec.co.nz/product/Marantz_SR6012. I wonder how different the SR6013 and SR6012 are.



Not much apparently


3594 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2313808 9-Sep-2019 19:36
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justinbyoung:

 

The more I look the better the SR6013 looks. I see there is a new SR6104 coming, but it looks like it is more or less exactly the same as the SR6013 just with some extra features. The one that has me concerned is HDCP 2.3 support. The SR613 only support HDCP 2.2. I haven't had to deal with HDMI compatibility issues with my receiver before. Does this mean that SR6013 will stop working properly if the media companies enforce HDCP 2.3 in the future? I want to get years of use out of this thing.

 

I am using this site https://www.zkelectronics.com/receivers/ to do some comparisons between the options.

 

 

 

 

The SR6012 doesn't look like it's getting HDCP 2.3, so you'll need some kind of HDCP 'convertor' to get the AVR to handshake properly.

 

If I was buying an AVR today it would be about as up-to-date as possible... but that's just me.

 

Also, note that some AVR's won't work with new HDCP sources AND older sources (HDCP 1.4 etc).

 

You'll want to check to see if the AVR can switch HDCP versions per source to ensure maximum compatibility, otherwise you may have a world of hurt on your hands.


326 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2313838 9-Sep-2019 20:56
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Dunnersfella:

The SR6012 doesn't look like it's getting HDCP 2.3, so you'll need some kind of HDCP 'convertor' to get the AVR to handshake properly.


If I was buying an AVR today it would be about as up-to-date as possible... but that's just me.


Also, note that some AVR's won't work with new HDCP sources AND older sources (HDCP 1.4 etc).


You'll want to check to see if the AVR can switch HDCP versions per source to ensure maximum compatibility, otherwise you may have a world of hurt on your hands.



Man HDCP is a giant clusterf***.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in amongst the general confusion, I have been seeing that HDCP 2.3 gets mentioned alongside HDMI 2.1, so if you are not playing content that requires HDMI 2.1 features (4k120/8k60 etc), then 2.2 up the chain should be fine?



53 posts

Master Geek


  # 2313840 9-Sep-2019 21:09
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The SR6013 is only HDCP 2.2 as well. It looks like the upcoming SR6014 will have HDCP 2.3. it sucks how they advertise HDCP as a feature when it's just there to make your life more difficult.

337 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2313969 10-Sep-2019 08:56
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I got an SR5012 a couple of years ago, when still the latest model and AV World did a really good deal (that wasn't advertised) for $999 (if I recall correctly).  They were advertising the SR5011 at that price, but actually selling the SR5012 at it.  Give them a ring and see what deals they're prepared to do.  it seems sometimes they're not able to advertise some of their really good deals.

 

 


326 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2314144 10-Sep-2019 11:22
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justinbyoung: The SR6013 is only HDCP 2.2 as well. It looks like the upcoming SR6014 will have HDCP 2.3. it sucks how they advertise HDCP as a feature when it's just there to make your life more difficult.

 

Reading between the sales focused lines here, the way I am interpreting HDCP 2.3 is that it is to account for the higher data rate required by standards such as HDMI 2.1, but it will still work with any HDCP compliant spec, it will just fall backwards to the lowest specced link in the the chain ie. an 8k stream sent through HDCP 2.2 AVR -> HDCP 2.3 TV will only be able to be rendered in 2.2 compliant streams eg 4k max.

 

So unless you plan on buying a TV/AVR capable of processing content such as 8K or 4k120 HDR10 etc in the next 5-10 years, I'm still not convinced it matters. Happy for someone more knowledgeable to correct me though, since it is NOT clear at all.

 

@dunnersfella ?

 

 


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