GCSB declines Spark’s proposal to use Huawei 5G equipment

Forums › Spark New Zealand (including Skinny and BigPipe) › GCSB declines Spark’s proposal to use Huawei 5G equipment

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Batman

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#2197266 13-Mar-2019 13:38

BarTender:

tripper1000:

vulcannz:

and people keep forgetting most of your pre-2000 cisco gear was made by huawei (as cisco's OEM)

No exactly relevant to the debate - when Cisco is designing the gear and writing the firmware, it is pretty easy for Cisco to audit the final product and hard for the communist party to slip in Trojan hardware/software. When Huawei is designing it's own gear and writing its own firmware no one in the west is privy to the design process and would not be any the wiser if it contained unnecessary extras, back doors, zombie bots etc.

Still not answering my question which is Huawei would only have a single shot at doing this. Since after the trigger was pulled and news got out they had "extras" they would be toast. Permanently.

Are you seriously saying that Huawei would risk it's ENTIRE FUTURE under pressure from the Chinese Government to allow a backdoor into their product?

You obviously don't know about corruption! Either you can be coerced at gunpoint (you want your grandchildren to be part of the elite, or do you not?) or the kickbacks are too enormous to reject (eg if your company gets found and fails I will pay you X billion dollars in this and that form. Thanks for your cooperation.)

Now I'm not saying Huawei is bad but this line of logic does not work in the dark world.

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#2197314 13-Mar-2019 14:04

tripper1000:

vulcannz:

and people keep forgetting most of your pre-2000 cisco gear was made by huawei (as cisco's OEM)

No exactly relevant to the debate - when Cisco is designing the gear and writing the firmware, it is pretty easy for Cisco to audit the final product and hard for the communist party to slip in Trojan hardware/software. When Huawei is designing it's own gear and writing its own firmware no one in the west is privy to the design process and would not be any the wiser if it contained unnecessary extras, back doors, zombie bots etc.

It's not that easy to audit the gear. And most gear will ship direct from China/Taiwan to distribution.

And lets not forget those equation group back doors into cisco gear.

The real issue the USA have is that they will not be able to compromise the huawei gear so easily.....

....I mean heaven forbid someone other than the USA eavesdrop on European leaders.

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#2197396 13-Mar-2019 16:22

Batman:

BarTender: Still not answering my question which is Huawei would only have a single shot at doing this. Since after the trigger was pulled and news got out they had "extras" they would be toast. Permanently.

Are you seriously saying that Huawei would risk it's ENTIRE FUTURE under pressure from the Chinese Government to allow a backdoor into their product?

You obviously don't know about corruption! Either you can be coerced at gunpoint (you want your grandchildren to be part of the elite, or do you not?) or the kickbacks are too enormous to reject (eg if your company gets found and fails I will pay you X billion dollars in this and that form. Thanks for your cooperation.)

Now I'm not saying Huawei is bad but this line of logic does not work in the dark world.

I know plenty about corruption and my personal dealings with Huawei.

Going down your threat modeling. Chinese spy agency bad-guy holds gun to head of logistics / supply line Huawei staffer / family so that bad things can be added to eNodeB's or similar core mobile components.

Device arrives in country and Telco does standard due diligence on equipment (including potential x-ray) and notices it is different. Opens it up and say "hang on a second what's this whole extra set of CPUs and storage".

Huawei is already under intense scrutiny where the expectation is they *ARE* doing something dodgy, which I think is rightfully justified. When I have had personal dealings with them they will go above and beyond to confirm they are above board as everyone expects they are not.

If the corruption goes all the way to the top and Huawei are as corrupt as you say, no western world Telco would *EVER* purchase their hardware / software. Tens if not hundreds of billions of dollars would no longer be spent with them, and if it ever came out then it would be a justification to never manufacture anything in China ever again. I know the Americans are itching to do it, so why would the Chinese give them any justification for their paranoia?

I just don't believe that the Chinese government would be that foolish to sacrifice their entire technology business.

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#2197494 13-Mar-2019 18:29

BarTender:

Batman:

BarTender: Still not answering my question which is Huawei would only have a single shot at doing this. Since after the trigger was pulled and news got out they had "extras" they would be toast. Permanently.

Are you seriously saying that Huawei would risk it's ENTIRE FUTURE under pressure from the Chinese Government to allow a backdoor into their product?

You obviously don't know about corruption! Either you can be coerced at gunpoint (you want your grandchildren to be part of the elite, or do you not?) or the kickbacks are too enormous to reject (eg if your company gets found and fails I will pay you X billion dollars in this and that form. Thanks for your cooperation.)

Now I'm not saying Huawei is bad but this line of logic does not work in the dark world.

I know plenty about corruption and my personal dealings with Huawei.

Going down your threat modeling. Chinese spy agency bad-guy holds gun to head of logistics / supply line Huawei staffer / family so that bad things can be added to eNodeB's or similar core mobile components.

Device arrives in country and Telco does standard due diligence on equipment (including potential x-ray) and notices it is different. Opens it up and say "hang on a second what's this whole extra set of CPUs and storage".

Huawei is already under intense scrutiny where the expectation is they *ARE* doing something dodgy, which I think is rightfully justified. When I have had personal dealings with them they will go above and beyond to confirm they are above board as everyone expects they are not.

If the corruption goes all the way to the top and Huawei are as corrupt as you say, no western world Telco would *EVER* purchase their hardware / software. Tens if not hundreds of billions of dollars would no longer be spent with them, and if it ever came out then it would be a justification to never manufacture anything in China ever again. I know the Americans are itching to do it, so why would the Chinese give them any justification for their paranoia?

I just don't believe that the Chinese government would be that foolish to sacrifice their entire technology business.

Well the paranoia stems from the fact that the Chinese has already hacked into the Pentagon and stolen 20 terabytes of data.

The result of these continuous attacks have resulted in stolen classified military technology, some of which is well manifest - the latest chinese fighter is apparently a direct (but poorly implemented!) copy of the American F35.

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#2210002 3-Apr-2019 10:01

Juha says the actual reason the UK has blocked Huawei is the software - old RTOS, full of holes, use of deprecated/unsafe functions, etc...

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#2210025 3-Apr-2019 10:52

vulcannz:

The real issue the USA have is that they will not be able to compromise the huawei gear so easily.....

Well the British have just proven that's not the case at all!! Sounds like any script kiddie could hack their gear.

BarTender:

If the corruption goes all the way to the top and Huawei are as corrupt as you say, no western world Telco would *EVER* purchase their hardware / software. Tens if not hundreds of billions of dollars would no longer be spent with them, and if it ever came out then it would be a justification to never manufacture anything in China ever again. I know the Americans are itching to do it, so why would the Chinese give them any justification for their paranoia?

I just don't believe that the Chinese government would be that foolish to sacrifice their entire technology business.

That simply isn't the way the situation stands and how it would play out if they were busted doing something bad. China can do what they like when if comes to tech with a high degree of impunity because the rest of the world can't do anything about it. The rest of the world has largely lost the ability to manufacture tech, so you can't quickly and easy switch away from China. Even if you do, you are still assembling Chinese made components so they have you there too. Trump wanted to pull tech manufacturing back to the State to thwart Intellectual Property theft but I can't be done inside of 10 years and without restating multiple long-since-defunct-in-the-USA tech industries.

Is it technically"corruption" if you are complying with the local laws and government demands? Corruption as you and I understand it, is a normal way of life, woven into the fabric of society. I don't think you understand the Chinese ethos of Government or citizenship. Chinese government puts Chinese interest before all else, (I wish NZ put NZ interests first!!) including export earnings and world relations.

It is highly like that Chinese companies would comply with Chinese government demands, without any money changing hands, for several reasons. Chinese citizens have far fewer rights of freedom and are at the mercy of the Government, so will acquiesce to government demands - such as who they deal with and how. The society has what we would describe as embedded and ingrained racism. The rights of foreigners are well below the rights of Chinese citizens - if you find yourself in a Chinese court accused of an offence against a Chinese citizen, there is about a 99% chance of conviction irrespective of what actually happened, so to pull a technology swifty on a foreigner would raise no moral conflict for a Chinese citizen.

You would also have to ignore the fact that the Chinese Army has an entire battalion dedicated to hacking and that China is has the the most prolific professional hacking in the world, closely followed by North Korea. Would you trust the integrity of tech products from North Korea? But you will from China? That's an inconsistent approach given their Governments parallel disregard for the rights of foreign countries and similar levels of absolute power over the citizens, and parallel appetites for hacking and espionage.

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#2210035 3-Apr-2019 10:58

U.S. officials plan for a future in which Huawei has a major share of 5G global networks

https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-5g-huawei-security-espionage-20190401-story.html

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#2210043 3-Apr-2019 11:08

ajw: U.S. officials plan for a future in which Huawei has a major share of 5G global networks

https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-5g-huawei-security-espionage-20190401-story.html

"U.S. officials, frustrated by persistent demands that they reveal a “smoking gun” to back up their warnings that Huawei represents a security risk, have pushed the argument that Chinese laws compel firms such as Huawei to cooperate with intelligence agencies, without the judicial and legal safeguards that exist in the United States"

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#2211508 5-Apr-2019 22:09

Mobile UK warns of up to GBP 7 bln cost to UK economy from Huawei ban

Friday 5 April 2019 | 08:23 CET | News

Cutting Huawei out of the UK's planned 5G networks would cost GBP 7 billion and delay the launch for years, according to a report from industry group Mobile UK. The mobile operators warned that blocking Huawei equipment from the UK's 5G infrastructure would lower inward investment, hit consumers and damage the UK's economic standing, the Daily Telegraph reports.

According to Mobile UK, the trade group representing network operators O2, EE, Vodafone and Three, restricting the use of Huawei equipment in the region would delay the launch of the fast network technology by between 18 months and two years. This delay would cost the UK economy between GBP 4.5 billion and GBP 6.8 billion, the report said.

"The importance of early 5G leadership to realise the economic benefits of the technology can’t be understated," the report said. "If any restriction were to be imposed on Huawei, many of the benefits associated with 5G leadership could be lost for good."

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#2228760 1-May-2019 14:53

Vodafone EU says these backdoor access existed and continue to exist

https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/world/112377189/huawei-had-unauthorised-access-to-peoples-computers

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#2228776 1-May-2019 14:57

It's not a backdoor. It's just Telnet, and is only accessible from the internal network, not the Internet.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/04/30/huawei_enterprise_router_backdoor_is_telnet/

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#2694786 19-Apr-2021 13:24

https://twitter.com/MartijnRasser/status/1383769537829502979

If this is verified then it really drives home the validity around the spying concerns

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#2695005 19-Apr-2021 20:13

It's hard to tell if 'had access' in this context means open ports and zero thinking about architecture by the telco from this perspective, or if the access was actually used for nefarious purposes. The english language article linked in the Twitter was dated 2019 around the same time Trump kicked it off.

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#2695221 20-Apr-2021 11:56

gzt: It's hard to tell if 'had access' in this context means open ports and zero thinking about architecture by the telco from this perspective, or if the access was actually used for nefarious purposes. The english language article linked in the Twitter was dated 2019 around the same time Trump kicked it off.

https://www.theregister.com/2021/04/19/huawei_kpn_reports_netherlands/

Appears to have a bit more detail

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