Telecom Ultra Broadband: Fibre vs VDSL

Forums › Spark New Zealand (including Skinny and BigPipe) › Telecom Ultra Broadband: Fibre vs VDSL

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1332 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user

#872606 6-Aug-2013 12:05

bastetx: I loath this country and our third world network, live in Papakura, Cant get cable, cant get vdsl stuck on adls which as far as Im concerned is glorified dial up.
1km from the box Im connected to and still cant get vdsl at least.
Sorry to everyone , but I had to vent somewhere, I dont have / want sky as networks, linux etc is my hobby and I cant even do that properly with the 3rd world network we have ..

You have obviously never used the internet in a third world country.

plambrechtsen

1948 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user

#872609 6-Aug-2013 12:07

Kirdog:
bastetx: I loath this country and our third world network, live in Papakura, Cant get cable, cant get vdsl stuck on adls which as far as Im concerned is glorified dial up.
1km from the box Im connected to and still cant get vdsl at least.
Sorry to everyone , but I had to vent somewhere, I dont have / want sky as networks, linux etc is my hobby and I cant even do that properly with the 3rd world network we have ..

Pfff i'm on the same boat.

I'm just on edge of Central city, Auckland. Can't get anything except ADSL2+ with lowered speeds. And it's cuts my hobby as well :(

That happens everywhere, and it's sad.

I suggest that if you believe NZ has a 3rd world network you read SBiddle's post for a bit of a reality check: http://www.geekzone.co.nz/sbiddle/8433

I live in Wellington and am in the same boat, outside VDSL coverage, not getting UFB until 2016/7 at the earliest. And I am building the subscriber management stack.

For me I am happy with my ADSL, have managed to download and upload over 500GB in one month.

It's all a numbers game. For Chorus to commission a Cabinet is typically $150k give or take a bit. That is normally to support around 600 customers give or take a bit.

If you wanted a cabinet closer to you, or fibre (like what Kim Dotcom did) earlier than when Chorus is rolling it out. I can put you in touch with a Chorus investment manager. But expect the number you will need to pay will start with a number well into 5 digits, and may perhaps be 6. If you want world class broadband I hope you are prepared to pay for it.

Jarsky

142 posts

Master Geek

#872647 6-Aug-2013 13:04

bastetx: I loath this country and our third world network

Having had broadband services in 3rd world countries, including when living in a central city area, I can confirm that you have never infact, been to a 3rd world country.
I won't flog a dead horse, others have already covered the challenges of servicing an isolated country with wide spread low population density.

But we definately aren't a 3rd world country having fibre & cable services, DC-HSPA+ and LTE networks opearting/ready to launch, fibre fed backbones nationwide, FTTN to majority of todays mobile sites & roadside cabinets, with rural cabinets being upgraded (RBI).

ADSL is a far cry from dialup, even if you were like 6-7km away from your exchange, on a conklin, you would probably have better service than someone on dial up.

Don't forget we're almost in the Top 40 countries for broadband access speed, yet we're not even in the Top 120 countries for population. Compartively we're doing very well in this area as a country.

NonprayingMantis

6434 posts

Uber Geek

#872679 6-Aug-2013 13:49

bastetx: I loath this country and our third world network, live in Papakura, Cant get cable, cant get vdsl stuck on adls which as far as Im concerned is glorified dial up.
1km from the box Im connected to and still cant get vdsl at least.
Sorry to everyone , but I had to vent somewhere, I dont have / want sky as networks, linux etc is my hobby and I cant even do that properly with the 3rd world network we have ..

hmm, I see a way to +1 a post, but no way to -1 a post. that would have come in handy here.

Kirdog

202 posts

Master Geek

#872714 6-Aug-2013 15:18

plambrechtsen:
Kirdog:
bastetx: I loath this country and our third world network, live in Papakura, Cant get cable, cant get vdsl stuck on adls which as far as Im concerned is glorified dial up.
1km from the box Im connected to and still cant get vdsl at least.
Sorry to everyone , but I had to vent somewhere, I dont have / want sky as networks, linux etc is my hobby and I cant even do that properly with the 3rd world network we have ..

Pfff i'm on the same boat.

I'm just on edge of Central city, Auckland. Can't get anything except ADSL2+ with lowered speeds. And it's cuts my hobby as well :(

That happens everywhere, and it's sad.

I suggest that if you believe NZ has a 3rd world network you read SBiddle's post for a bit of a reality check: http://www.geekzone.co.nz/sbiddle/8433

I live in Wellington and am in the same boat, outside VDSL coverage, not getting UFB until 2016/7 at the earliest. And I am building the subscriber management stack.

For me I am happy with my ADSL, have managed to download and upload over 500GB in one month.

It's all a numbers game. For Chorus to commission a Cabinet is typically $150k give or take a bit. That is normally to support around 600 customers give or take a bit.

If you wanted a cabinet closer to you, or fibre (like what Kim Dotcom did) earlier than when Chorus is rolling it out. I can put you in touch with a Chorus investment manager. But expect the number you will need to pay will start with a number well into 5 digits, and may perhaps be 6. If you want world class broadband I hope you are prepared to pay for it.

Well, but i cant understand some conservative chorus settings:

* High Noise Margins which sometimes doesn't make any sense, that gives lower speeds only.
* NO AnnexM
* NO SDSL
* NO port bonding

As i said before: For me everything is fine, except upload speed :)

Sorry about my English guys :>

Inphinity

2780 posts

Uber Geek

#872719 6-Aug-2013 15:32

Kirdog:
Well, but i cant understand some conservative chorus settings:

They're conservative so as to not risk screwing up their network for the majority of users to give minor improvements for a small number?

Kirdog

202 posts

Master Geek

#872721 6-Aug-2013 15:38

Inphinity:
Kirdog:
Well, but i cant understand some conservative chorus settings:

They're conservative so as to not risk screwing up their network for the majority of users to give minor improvements for a small number?

For example annexM: if i want it, then i know what risks i will handle: possible stability issues or low download speeds. How it can affect others users or Chorus network? It's affecting only me. No problema at all for Chorus.

Port Bonding affect other users? WOW o_O

Sorry about my English guys :>

Equinox IT

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Inphinity

2780 posts

Uber Geek

#872722 6-Aug-2013 15:41

Kirdog:
Inphinity:
Kirdog:
Well, but i cant understand some conservative chorus settings:

They're conservative so as to not risk screwing up their network for the majority of users to give minor improvements for a small number?

For example annexM: if i want it, then i know what risks i will handle: possible stability issues or low download speeds. How it can affect others users or Chorus network? It's affecting only me. No problema at all for Chorus.

Port Bonding affect other users? WOW o_O

Crosstalk on your AnnexM port can have an impact on users on adjacent pairs and would need to be managed properly

Port bonding is likely more to do with a) supporting a more complex install and b) availability of ports

I'm sure there are some providers offering annexM and port bonding services around, though. They're just not really mass market.

sbiddle

30853 posts

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Retired Mod

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Biddle Corp

Lifetime subscriber

#872727 6-Aug-2013 15:48

Kirdog:
Well, but i cant understand some conservative chorus settings:

* High Noise Margins which sometimes doesn't make any sense, that gives lower speeds only.
* NO AnnexM
* NO SDSL
* NO port bonding

As i said before: For me everything is fine, except upload speed :)

You keep raising several of these issues despite being told why they the way they are.

Conservative settings exists for a reason. You're not their only customer.

Annex M doesn't exist because there is no spectrum management plan for copper. If you understood how Annex M worked you would understand why this is so important.

SDSL isn't a standards based technology. SHDSL on the other hand offers symmetrical speeds and is offered by Chorus.

Port bonding isn't without it's issues. Chorus have trialed this extensively and presumably reached the conclusion that it wasn't stable enough to deploy as a commercial product. Lack of a bonded product isn't an issue anyway, as there are plenty of ways of delivering a "bonded" solution over multiple xDSL connections using technologies such as MLPPP.

sbiddle

30853 posts

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Lifetime subscriber

#872729 6-Aug-2013 15:50

Kirdog:
Inphinity:
Kirdog:
Well, but i cant understand some conservative chorus settings:

They're conservative so as to not risk screwing up their network for the majority of users to give minor improvements for a small number?

For example annexM: if i want it, then i know what risks i will handle: possible stability issues or low download speeds. How it can affect others users or Chorus network? It's affecting only me. No problema at all for Chorus.

I guess you just proved my point in my post above. You don't understand the technology you're asking for or the implications of it on other users.

When you xDSL signal is carried in a large multi pair MPF it's got the ability to impact every other connection in that MPF via crosstalk.

Kirdog

202 posts

Master Geek

#872747 6-Aug-2013 16:10

sbiddle:
Kirdog:
Well, but i cant understand some conservative chorus settings:

* High Noise Margins which sometimes doesn't make any sense, that gives lower speeds only.
* NO AnnexM
* NO SDSL
* NO port bonding

As i said before: For me everything is fine, except upload speed :)

SHDSL on the other hand offers symmetrical speeds and is offered by Chorus.

I have asked chorus about it, they said, ask your ISP.

I didn't found which ISP support it.

And please give me proof of increased crosstalk on AnnexM mode.

Main difference between Annex A and AnnexM is a frequency occupation by upload stream, it is affecting download stream only.

Sorry about my English guys :>

sbiddle

30853 posts

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#872762 6-Aug-2013 16:39

Kirdog:
And please give me proof of increased crosstalk on AnnexM mode.

To be completely honest I can't be bothered wasting my time replying to such a comment. I'm out..

Talkiet

4792 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

#872767 6-Aug-2013 17:00

Kirdog: snip]
And please give me proof of increased crosstalk on AnnexM mode.

http://bit.ly/13C5FPM

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

hydroksyde

31 posts

Geek

#872772 6-Aug-2013 17:16

plambrechtsen:
Kirdog:
bastetx: I loath this country and our third world network, live in Papakura, Cant get cable, cant get vdsl stuck on adls which as far as Im concerned is glorified dial up.
1km from the box Im connected to and still cant get vdsl at least.
Sorry to everyone , but I had to vent somewhere, I dont have / want sky as networks, linux etc is my hobby and I cant even do that properly with the 3rd world network we have ..

Pfff i'm on the same boat.

I'm just on edge of Central city, Auckland. Can't get anything except ADSL2+ with lowered speeds. And it's cuts my hobby as well :(

That happens everywhere, and it's sad.

I suggest that if you believe NZ has a 3rd world network you read SBiddle's post for a bit of a reality check: http://www.geekzone.co.nz/sbiddle/8433

You can get plenty of internet in the third world... Because nobody cares when you do http://forum.mikrotik.com/download/file.php?id=4431. Also, much of the third world isn't a geographically isolated island with a low population density.

Kirdog

202 posts

Master Geek

#872803 6-Aug-2013 18:51

Talkiet:
Kirdog: snip]
And please give me proof of increased crosstalk on AnnexM mode.

http://bit.ly/13C5FPM

Cheers - N

Well, easy trolling, but in fact i still can't see answer on my question. I can see forums with "myth creators". Give me technical report please. :)

Also read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITU_G.992.5_Annex_M

and this:

http://www.billion.com/edu/AnnexM_Whitepaper.pdf

I cant see anything except frequency difference.

SO?

Sorry about my English guys :>

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