GCSB declines Spark’s proposal to use Huawei 5G equipment

Forums › Spark New Zealand (including Skinny and BigPipe) › GCSB declines Spark’s proposal to use Huawei 5G equipment

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#2136205 28-Nov-2018 17:15

surfisup1000:

DarthKermit:

Meh: who the hell needs 5G anyway?

Are there practical real world benefits to 5g? I'm guessing the biggest benefit would be increased data caps? That could be nice.

For standard webpage loading and video streaming (99% of traffic use?), 4g seems more than capable .

I reember the same arugment being said about 4G/3G...! Oh wouldn't it be nice to have the benefit of hindsight...

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#2136207 28-Nov-2018 17:26

BarTender:

So what does this mean to Spark's existing Huawei 4G Network?

And Enable & UFF's UFB Fibre Network?

And 2Degrees RAN?

And the hundreds of thousands of Huawei CPE out at customer premesis such as HG659s / HG630s etc.

And the what about the mobile phones out there?

If there was even a hint that the Chinese Government were spying on the country via Huawei then they would be toast. So I really hope we see the detailed fallout as to why they were rejected. However that may never happen "because of national security"

Exactly my questions....

The public comments implied it comes down to the concept that 5G will be used for IOT...

all while i'm sitting here going uh.... so what about Cat M1 or Lorawan!

also you have been outside of spark too long, most of the RAN is huawei now, 3G gears been swapped out..

Given all the work that's gone into the RAN swaps, I'm seriously disappointed it's come out this way.. Single RAN for 4/5G hopes crashed!

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dolsen

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#2136213 28-Nov-2018 18:09

Meanwhile...

https://www.infoworld.com/article/2608141/internet-privacy/snowden--the-nsa-planted-backdoors-in-cisco-products.html

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#2136214 28-Nov-2018 18:10

DarthKermit:

Meh: who the hell needs 5G anyway?

Exactly.

PolicyGuy

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#2136222 28-Nov-2018 18:25

surfisup1000:

[snip]
Huawei might not be spying at present but there is a risk they could be coerced by the Chinese government to do so.

I doubt that is the concern. After all anything sensitive, let alone classified, will be encrypted. I mean even banks do that and so do we every time we use https or a VPN. So snooping is unlikely.

I suspect that the concern is a concealed Kill Switch, which would enable the Chinese government to turn off the whole system if they felt like it. Or even something like just a sneaky "drop 5% of packets for 30 seconds, then 25% for five seconds, then go quiet for a random interval: rinse and repeat" i.e go completely unreliable / flaky as commanded from Beijing.
That could be nasty.

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#2136224 28-Nov-2018 18:31

networkn:

BarTender:

If there was even a hint that the Chinese Government were spying on the country via Huawei then they would be toast. So I really hope we see the detailed fallout as to why they were rejected. However that may never happen "because of national security"

Toast?! How on earth would they be Toast? Would we send our entire Army, Navy and Airforce consisting of 2 guys in a rowboat with a shotgun, 1 crop duster and slingshot, and 11 guys with BB guns to 'teach them a lesson'? lol

I am not saying I agree with the decision, just that I think you might be overstating the consequences somewhat....

If it became public knowledge that Huawei actively have installed snooping software / hardware into their telco grade hardware to phone home to the Chinese Government then Spark (who is a very small player) would *NEVER* purchase their hardware again. Nor would any larger telco. I can say that for a certainty as we had exactly that conversation while at Spark and did active network monitoring of the equipment in the lab, and proactively monitored all data and control plane traffic for anomalies.

As with the Samknows probes, it is incredibly easy to snoop on traffic and if there is any untoward traffic going in an unusual direction then it would most likely be picked up.

You have to remember that the RAN itself isn't plugged into the internet and it's supplying "layer 2" and is connected via non Huawei gear. The management plane is logically separated too and traffic flows in that carrier network is VERY closely monitored for anomalies.

So I stand behind my statement that if there was any funny stuff going on that was of concern the Telco would pick up on it and news would spread like wildfire and Huawei would struggle to fill an order ever again worldwide in my professional experience.

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#2136230 28-Nov-2018 18:42

All it takes is FUD from USA and everyone submits

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#2136237 28-Nov-2018 19:29

dfnt:

All it takes is FUD from USA and everyone submits

oh no. America has become bitcoin.

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insane

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#2136239 28-Nov-2018 19:34

Well, I guess now we just sit and wait to see whether NZ is controlled by the USA or China.

Let's give it another 30 days to play out

networkn

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#2136248 28-Nov-2018 20:12

insane:

Well, I guess now we just sit and wait to see whether NZ is controlled by the USA or China.

Let's give it another 30 days to play out

That made my day. Thanks :)

surfisup1000

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#2136258 28-Nov-2018 20:25

PolicyGuy:

surfisup1000:

[snip]
Huawei might not be spying at present but there is a risk they could be coerced by the Chinese government to do so.

I doubt that is the concern. After all anything sensitive, let alone classified, will be encrypted. I mean even banks do that and so do we every time we use https or a VPN. So snooping is unlikely.

I suspect that the concern is a concealed Kill Switch, which would enable the Chinese government to turn off the whole system if they felt like it. Or even something like just a sneaky "drop 5% of packets for 30 seconds, then 25% for five seconds, then go quiet for a random interval: rinse and repeat" i.e go completely unreliable / flaky as commanded from Beijing.
That could be nasty.

Yes, there is some truth in that. However, I was reading up on the spying stuff around the internet, and just seeing who is talking to who has quite some value.

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#2136260 28-Nov-2018 20:30

BarTender:

networkn:

BarTender:

If there was even a hint that the Chinese Government were spying on the country via Huawei then they would be toast. So I really hope we see the detailed fallout as to why they were rejected. However that may never happen "because of national security"

Toast?! How on earth would they be Toast? Would we send our entire Army, Navy and Airforce consisting of 2 guys in a rowboat with a shotgun, 1 crop duster and slingshot, and 11 guys with BB guns to 'teach them a lesson'? lol

I am not saying I agree with the decision, just that I think you might be overstating the consequences somewhat....

If it became public knowledge that Huawei actively have installed snooping software / hardware into their telco grade hardware to phone home to the Chinese Government then Spark (who is a very small player) would *NEVER* purchase their hardware again. Nor would any larger telco. I can say that for a certainty as we had exactly that conversation while at Spark and did active network monitoring of the equipment in the lab, and proactively monitored all data and control plane traffic for anomalies.

As with the Samknows probes, it is incredibly easy to snoop on traffic and if there is any untoward traffic going in an unusual direction then it would most likely be picked up.

You have to remember that the RAN itself isn't plugged into the internet and it's supplying "layer 2" and is connected via non Huawei gear. The management plane is logically separated too and traffic flows in that carrier network is VERY closely monitored for anomalies.

So I stand behind my statement that if there was any funny stuff going on that was of concern the Telco would pick up on it and news would spread like wildfire and Huawei would struggle to fill an order ever again worldwide in my professional experience.

I would really like to see the actual repoprt from the GCSB and not just the media hype around this.

Also looking at the press release it states the below.
"The Government's spy agency is raising concerns about part of Spark's proposed 5G network, citing significant risks to national security."

Air gaps in networks has its advangates when it comes to this.

I do think this is very geopolitical and we will see what happens in the next few weeks.. and where this leaves existing equipment both enterprise and carrier grade gear

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#2136261 28-Nov-2018 20:32

dolsen:

Meanwhile...

https://www.infoworld.com/article/2608141/internet-privacy/snowden--the-nsa-planted-backdoors-in-cisco-products.html

I think these continues on the theme of the USA trying to pull money out of the Chinese economy, the spying is a convenient (though on balance of probability, accurate) excuse.

networkn

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#2136264 28-Nov-2018 20:38

BarTender:

networkn:

BarTender:

If there was even a hint that the Chinese Government were spying on the country via Huawei then they would be toast. So I really hope we see the detailed fallout as to why they were rejected. However that may never happen "because of national security"

Toast?! How on earth would they be Toast? Would we send our entire Army, Navy and Airforce consisting of 2 guys in a rowboat with a shotgun, 1 crop duster and slingshot, and 11 guys with BB guns to 'teach them a lesson'? lol

I am not saying I agree with the decision, just that I think you might be overstating the consequences somewhat....

If it became public knowledge that Huawei actively have installed snooping software / hardware into their telco grade hardware to phone home to the Chinese Government then Spark (who is a very small player) would *NEVER* purchase their hardware again. Nor would any larger telco. I can say that for a certainty as we had exactly that conversation while at Spark and did active network monitoring of the equipment in the lab, and proactively monitored all data and control plane traffic for anomalies.

As with the Samknows probes, it is incredibly easy to snoop on traffic and if there is any untoward traffic going in an unusual direction then it would most likely be picked up.

You have to remember that the RAN itself isn't plugged into the internet and it's supplying "layer 2" and is connected via non Huawei gear. The management plane is logically separated too and traffic flows in that carrier network is VERY closely monitored for anomalies.

So I stand behind my statement that if there was any funny stuff going on that was of concern the Telco would pick up on it and news would spread like wildfire and Huawei would struggle to fill an order ever again worldwide in my professional experience.

Sorry, I read your comment to mean you thought China would be toast. I agree with the logic that Huawei would lose all credibilty and struggle to remain in the market.

rugrat

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#2136272 28-Nov-2018 21:15

Wonder if the Chinese government will retaliate.

We do a lot of trade with China, benefits both countries, but we've only be a drop to China.

They don't seem worried about all the stuff already here.

Don't trust hardware outright, take precautions would be more balanced approach in my view, what next, no Russian products?

Wonder if it's more to do with Americas trade war with China?

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