Spark cellsite with no redundancy. Fibre internet outage = cellsite outage

Forums › Spark New Zealand (including Skinny and BigPipe) › Spark cellsite with no redundancy. Fibre internet outage = cellsite outage

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#2701743 4-May-2021 15:18

sbiddle:

Most cellsites will all have single points of failure. It's simply the thje way things are engineered.

It's no different to most last mile copper and fibre networks in NZ, and distribution fibre in some parts of the country.

Do you think it's good enough? Considering we'll be decommissioning copper soon, I expect this will become more of a talking point.

I do not believe we should be leaving entire communities unable to dial 111 because of a single cut fibre. It is a step backwards.

EDIT: Again, ensure you're visualising the scenario I described in the original post. A community with a single cell site and fibre internet. Most dwellings in NZ have "redundancy" in the fact that they have Spark, Vodafone and sometimes 2deg cellsites within range. A call to 111 will use any available network regardless of who the subscriber is with. But it is the edge cases like this where there is literally ONE cellsite which hinges off the same infrastructure as the broadband and no copper connections to fall back on that I'm advocating just shouldn't be allowed to happen.

steve98

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#2701750 4-May-2021 15:42

Talkiet:

Who's going to pay the eye-watering sums to add access type or geographic fibre resilience to every tower that's covering a small community?

Cheers - N

I'd suggest govt subsidise the costs to build it out and those benefitting from it should pay a modest monthly fee to cover it that regular "urban" customers do not have to pay. The secondary link need only be enough to take voice traffic.

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#2701751 4-May-2021 15:44

steve98:

sbiddle:

Most cellsites will all have single points of failure. It's simply the thje way things are engineered.

It's no different to most last mile copper and fibre networks in NZ, and distribution fibre in some parts of the country.

Do you think it's good enough? Considering we'll be decommissioning copper soon, I expect this will become more of a talking point.

I do not believe we should be leaving entire communities unable to dial 111 because of a single cut fibre. It is a step backwards.

EDIT: Again, ensure you're visualising the scenario I described in the original post. A community with a single cell site and fibre internet. Most dwellings in NZ have "redundancy" in the fact that they have Spark, Vodafone and sometimes 2deg cellsites within range. A call to 111 will use any available network regardless of who the subscriber is with. But it is the edge cases like this where there is literally ONE cellsite which hinges off the same infrastructure as the broadband and no copper connections to fall back on that I'm advocating just shouldn't be allowed to happen.

Your copper connection had no redundancy in the copper MPF from the house to the exchange, or from the house to the cabinet. Likewise there is no redundancy of the copper MPF between the cabinet and exchange (or if you're on an ISAM-V of VMUX solution) the fibre from the cabinet to the exchange.

The question isn't whether this is good enough - because ultimately it's not. The question really is how much more you're willing to pay for your services so that every telco in NZ to build redundancy into every part of their network. The costs of this would be eye watering - you'd be talking literally hundreds and hundreds of millions to remove current single points of failure around the country in major distribution fibre. Ensurting every single town had fully redundant fibre going to it could potentially be a billion dollars project.

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#2701752 4-May-2021 15:44

steve98:

Talkiet:

Who's going to pay the eye-watering sums to add access type or geographic fibre resilience to every tower that's covering a small community?

Cheers - N

I'd suggest govt subsidies the costs and those benefitting from it should pay a modest monthly fee to cover it that regular "urban" customers do not have to pay. The secondary link need only be enough to take voice traffic.

@steve98 You know where the govt $$$ come from right?

So only when Voice traffic is enabled who pays for the staff time for when the call centres get smashed by end users as smart phone is now a dumb phone?

Edit: Maybe you would like to take those calls and explain how packet switch data / internet is now disabled for end users until further notice

chevrolux

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#2701758 4-May-2021 15:50

steve98:

Talkiet:

Who's going to pay the eye-watering sums to add access type or geographic fibre resilience to every tower that's covering a small community?

Cheers - N

I'd suggest govt subsidise the costs to build it out and those benefitting from it should pay a modest monthly fee to cover it that regular "urban" customers do not have to pay. The secondary link need only be enough to take voice traffic.

HAHAHAHAHAHAAH!!! Oh yes, amazing. Rural users just love being told to they have a tariff to pay because they are rural.

Honestly, I totally get where you are coming from, it sucks for a few edge cases. But this is something that is simply never going to change because the government decided they didn't want to own this infrastructure way back in 1987. They don't even want to own the UFB network, let alone, cell towers. Capitalism wins this one, that's all there is to it.

steve98

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#2701759 4-May-2021 15:50

sbiddle:

The question really is how much more you're willing to pay for your services so that every telco in NZ to build redundancy into every part of their network. The costs of this would be eye watering.

Again, you're extrapolating this out to me suggesting that every single cell site in NZ have redundancy. Once again, for those too slow or too deliberately obtuse enough to not understand, I am talking about providing very basic redundancy to cell-sites only where they are the only cell-site servicing a particular community, so that the community can make a call to 111. That automatically rules out the vast majority of cell-sites, particularly those in urban areas.

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#2701761 4-May-2021 15:53

What happens when the BTS / Node B gives up the ghost and the RAN hardware needs to be swapped out or some Covid / 5G nut job burns down the only serving cell in town?

redundancy???

steve98

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#2701766 4-May-2021 15:56

Linux:

@steve98 You know where the govt $$$ come from right?

So only when Voice traffic is enabled who pays for the staff time for when the call centres get smashed by end users as smart phone is now a dumb phone?

Edit: Maybe you would like to take those calls and explain how packet switch data / internet is now disabled for end users until further notice

You love not reading the whole post don't you. I literally acknowledged that the communities using it would need to pay an additional levy to cover the cost of govt subsidising the build-out costs. This happens for roads, why not communications infrastructure?

In response to your second question, there would obviously need to be an education piece to this. "If your home internet isn't working, you will only be able to make voice calls from your mobile in your area until service is fully restored." Simple.

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#2701772 4-May-2021 16:01

steve98:

Linux:

@steve98 You know where the govt $$$ come from right?

So only when Voice traffic is enabled who pays for the staff time for when the call centres get smashed by end users as smart phone is now a dumb phone?

Edit: Maybe you would like to take those calls and explain how packet switch data / internet is now disabled for end users until further notice

You love not reading the whole post don't you. I literally acknowledged that the communities using it would need to pay an additional levy to cover the cost of govt subsidising the build-out costs. This happens for roads, why not communications infrastructure?

In response to your second question, there would obviously need to be an education piece to this. "If your home internet isn't working, you will only be able to make voice calls from your mobile in your area until service is fully restored." Simple.

No not simple at all clearly you have never worked for a Telco and project costing!

Think of the uproar when end users hear they have to pay more just to have mobile coverage that is up 99.98% of the year

steve98

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#2701776 4-May-2021 16:08

Linux:

No not simple at all clearly you have never worked for a Telco and project costing!

Think of the uproar when end users hear they have to pay more just to have mobile coverage that is up 99.98% of the year

I have almost 20 years telco experience, though admittedly not with the costing side. Maybe I am wildly out of touch with what those costs are, but there has to be a better way than what we currently have. I assume that all of you shrugging your shoulders and who couldn't care less are at the helm so let's just continue on, not striving for better. She'll be right. Neighbour died because she couldn't call 111? Who cares, right?

chevrolux

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#2701777 4-May-2021 16:11

In response to your second question, there would obviously need to be an education piece to this. "If your home internet isn't working, you will only be able to make voice calls from your mobile in your area until service is fully restored." Simple.

Please spend just one day on an ISP tier 1 helpdesk. An "education piece" simply does not work. It is about as far from "simple" as it gets when dealing with the masses.

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#2701778 4-May-2021 16:12

I think you are struggling, Steve, with some people who are ‘Very Clever’ and ‘Know What I’m Talking About’. You make very valid points and it should be the case that a reasonable degree of reasonable redundancy of some sort is built into every cell site.

steve98

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#2701779 4-May-2021 16:13

chevrolux:

In response to your second question, there would obviously need to be an education piece to this. "If your home internet isn't working, you will only be able to make voice calls from your mobile in your area until service is fully restored." Simple.

Please spend just one day on an ISP tier 1 helpdesk. An "education piece" simply does not work. It is about as far from "simple" as it gets when dealing with the masses.

Been there, done that. Let's just leave them all cut off rather than disturbing your day for help once in a while, eh?

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#2701780 4-May-2021 16:13

steve98:

Linux:

No not simple at all clearly you have never worked for a Telco and project costing!

Think of the uproar when end users hear they have to pay more just to have mobile coverage that is up 99.98% of the year

I have almost 20 years telco experience, though admittedly not with the costing side. Maybe I am wildly out of touch with what those costs are, but there has to be a better way than what we currently have. I assume that all of you shrugging your shoulders and who couldn't care less are at the helm so let's just continue on, not striving for better. She'll be right. Neighbour died because she couldn't call 111? Who cares.

I personally find that a wildly offensive comment... Conflating a reasonable understanding of the complexities and potential costs with callous disregard for human life is actually not just offensive but an incredibly lazy debating 'strategy'.

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

steve98

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#2701783 4-May-2021 16:16

Talkiet:

I personally find that a wildly offensive comment... Conflating a reasonable understanding of the complexities and potential costs with callous disregard for human life is actually not just offensive but an incredibly lazy debating 'strategy'.

N

With apologies to you, I see very little here from the likes of @Linux that shows any regard for the human life being discussed here. Just mockery and pooh-poohing. Nothing constructive from him at all and many others. I'd love some better discussion than just "nah, you're an idiot". Are we geekzone or "nope zone"?

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