How mature is NZ Internet service industry?

Forums › Spark New Zealand (including Skinny and BigPipe) › How mature is NZ Internet service industry?

Frane

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#191182 27-Jan-2016 00:02

Here is my story. I have the fairly expensive 200/200 Mbit/s UFB connection through BigPipe which worked great for months. This morning, just before 9am my external monitoring service Pingdom (yes, I like monitoring the ISP service uptime) reported the connection was down. I waited patiently for one hour before emailing the BigPipe service desk about the service disruption. As a response eight (!) hours later I received the template-email about checking lights on ONT and general modem setup. Apparently emails sent directly to the BigPipe service desk email address and not through website are taken with less urgency??? Ok, you may think how bad things happen, people often get very busy and so on. However, the fault explanation received later during the evening from the helpdesk was the real eye-opener.

Here is the problem explanation from the BigPipe helpdesk staff member... It seems some other company have taken over your UFB connection. Sorry we didn't pick this up earlier. Can you confirm you haven't switched UFB providers for >?

The truth is that I sold the house with the settlement date in just over three weeks. It is probably the case that the buyer decided to organise the connection from the earliest possible time. However as an IT person I just can't understand operating procedures implemented by Chorus which, acting as an untouchable deity, disconnects users in an absolutely chaotic way. As the BigBipe support technician explained in his email:

All Chorus needs is the name of the current ISP and they will then switch the line over, and unfortunately in some cases incidents like these will occur. In UK, they did had a system where you have a password you need to get from your existing ISP before your new ISP can switch you over. However they had problems with the existing ISP not giving out the password when requested and they cancelled that system.

In other words it seems that anyone could misuse the Chorus laid back operational approach and disconnect other user(s) by providing certain public parameters without any further verification done by Chorus and/or ISP - in this case BigPipe. In addition to this revelation I am stunned that BigPipe didn't catch the disconnection event (how about active monitoring and maybe a courtesy phone call?) before my complain? Why eight hours for the inadequate support request response? Just because I didn't create the ticket through the website? After such blunder why I have to wait until Holly Chorus opens their office tomorrow? Who cares if I need to finish my work tonight? How about burglary monitoring, VoIP phone lines? Nah, I am just a consumer who qualifies for paying bills but for anything else... how about the business grade connection?

The internet business in New Zealand is in operational infancy. It is very clear to me and not only based on the personal experience that New Zealand internet service providers are not able to provide a secure, cost effective and operationally sound service. With endless improvisation, chronic underfunding and inadequate skills in the industry one cannot wait for the much larger scale Internet of Things to kick in. That will be the real fun.

Good night from my mobile phone connection and sweat dreams dear Chorus and BigPipe people,
Frane

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#1479493 27-Jan-2016 00:14

Serious question, are you going back to the buyer and ask for some money to compensate for their "initiative"?

If you can't get your fibre service back, is the 2degrees mobile broadband ($55/60GB + $$$ for modem) an option that you could charge back to the buyer?

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Frane

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#1479499 27-Jan-2016 00:36

Why would I go after the buyer Mauricio? Shouldn't internet providers check if the connection transfer request is legitimate before pulling the plug on the paid connection and leaving for the day?

I asked BigPipe for compensation, if not their fault (which is discussible from the operational monitoring perspective) they should re-charge it to their wholesale partner or whoever was the cowboy in my story.

F.

freitasm

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#1479500 27-Jan-2016 00:38

Sure, the process should work in a way that interruption of services wouldn't happen.

But it's configured to work this way so the gaining ISP should've warned the buyer. You can't reach the gaining ISP as you have no business with them, so you should ask the buyer really. It's certainly not BigPipe's fault or yours.

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kodiaknz

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#1479529 27-Jan-2016 07:06

I get your angst. But think about this. If the process was too locked to the incumbent ISP/owner and you needed some kind of password or written approval then if you say bought the house after say the death of the owner it could be extremely challenging to change ISPs. So yes maybe they need to have the current ISP confirm billing has or is ending first but I think the other reason it is like this is to assist with users being able to movie ISPs easily for competition reasons.

I get your pain but it's a residential connection. You are not paying anywhere near enough for business level service. Remember this is NZ not the UK or some other highly populated dense country. We don't have enough people to let the ISPs or RSPs have a big enough volume to really ramp up their service levels.

Edit: spelling

CYaBro

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#1479532 27-Jan-2016 07:15

Why does the existing connection need to be disconnected at all?
Couldn't the new ISP provision the new connection on a second port on the ont?
Then leave it up to you to disconnect your connection when you leave.

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andrew027

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#1479535 27-Jan-2016 07:44

Frane: Why would I go after the buyer Mauricio?

Because of this:

Frane: It is probably the case that the buyer decided to organise the connection from the earliest possible time.

The purchaser should have arranged for their connection to commence on settlement day - if they didn't then it's their fault. If they did ask for connection on or after settlement day and their ISP made the connection earlier, then your beef is with the ISP.

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sbiddle

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#1479538 27-Jan-2016 07:58

This is the first time I've seen a post on here like this, and I've never heard of this happening before so this needs to be put into come context - over the years there would probably be at least a hundred posts with people dealing with the incredibly painful process of trying to get broadband connected at a place they've moved into where the person who did live there has not lodged a disconnection meaning they've had to wait often weeks for a connection while the existing intact connection is disconnected.

The processes for connecting/reconnecting and churn between providers are complex, and at the end of the day the average person shouldn't need to understand how they work, but it's critical they do understand these if they are moving providers or premises. Broadband is not simple like electricity.

Yes a mistake has occured, and while it's not your fault you presumably gave the new tenants details for the churn or it's unlikley that this would not have been able to occur as a churn can't occur without knowing the losing LSP.

Churning the connection back is one option but probably not without causing a lot more chaos - can you simply get the new residents to let you use their connection since they caused the problem?

freitasm

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#1479547 27-Jan-2016 08:11

What an easy solution. If it is working, they pay for the period.

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NonprayingMantis

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#1479561 27-Jan-2016 08:21

sbiddle:
This is the first time I've seen a post on here like this, and I've never heard of this happening before so this needs to be put into come context - over the years there would probably be at least a hundred posts with people dealing with the incredibly painful process of trying to get broadband connected at a place they've moved into where the person who did live there has not lodged a disconnection meaning they've had to wait often weeks for a connection while the existing intact connection is disconnected.

The processes for connecting/reconnecting and churn between providers are complex, and at the end of the day the average person shouldn't need to understand how they work, but it's critical they do understand these if they are moving providers or premises. Broadband is not simple like electricity.

Yes a mistake has occured, and while it's not your fault you presumably gave the new tenants details for the churn or it's unlikley that this would not have been able to occur as a churn can't occur without knowing the losing LSP.

Churning the connection back is one option but probably not without causing a lot more chaos - can you simply get the new residents to let you use their connection since they caused the problem?

The difference could be that this case is ufb, where there is basically no proper abandonment process and chorus will just disconnect current ISP with no warning.

The previous cases on here have been wth copper. With copper, ISPs receive an abandonment notice from chorus and have a day or so to check with their customer and accept or reject the request.

BigPipeNZ

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#1479614 27-Jan-2016 09:16

Hi,

We've escalated this to Chorus. We don't know the details for sure yet, but this actually looks like a case of slamming rather than abandonment that is normally associated with moving house issues. (i.e. the new ISP has processed it as a transition rather than following the correct abandonment/new connection process) - this can be done by simply guessing the current ISP's name until you get it right.

I'll post an update once we find out more detail though

Just on the topic of your 8 hour response time, it's probably worth explaining a little bit about how we operate our email support so it doesn't happen again.

We have two different classes of enquiry - urgent and non-urgent. Our system automatically prioritises the urgent cases so they get answered quickly. We have a maximum response time of 2 hours for those queries. (average actual response time is around 20-30 mins)

For non-urgent, we have a maximum 24 hour response time. (average response time is around 8-10 hours)

When you post a message through our webform (https://www.bigpipe.co.nz/contact-us ) , it is automatically tagged as 'urgent' if the topic selected is related to disconnection issues or anything like that. That message then goes into the top section of our queue, so you will jump ahead of people who submit non-urgent queries. If the topic selected is non-urgent (e.g. refer a friend) then it goes at the bottom of the queue with the 24 hour max response time.

If you skip the form, and just send us an email, it is automatically tagged as non-urgent and within a few seconds you receive an automatic reply that encourages you to please use the webform for urgent enquiries.

the exact response is:

"Hey [name],

Great. Thanks for getting in touch. One of our support team members will get back to you within 24 hours. If your question’s urgent, you’re better off using the support message form.
We do check the urgency of all our enquiries, but the form makes it quicker for us and therefore you. So if it’s really urgent, please fill in our support form and one of our people will get back to you.

Cheers,

The Bigpipe People."

If the sender does not action this, then the case is assumed to be non-urgent and so goes to the bottom of the queue and gets a 24 hours maximum response. This is what happened with your case, and is why it took longer than normal to get a response.

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Frane

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#1479702 27-Jan-2016 10:38

BigPipeNZ: this can be done by simply guessing the current ISP's name until you get it right.

In other words, this simply means the system in place is vulnerable to the brute force attack. Is there anyone in charge of security assessment there, hello?

Some people in the forum insinuated that I provided relevant details to the buyer which were used for moving the connection to another ISP via Chorus in the described way. Although it is not true the basics of IT security teach how to build and govern systems resilient to social engineering attempts.

Now, business vs. residential connections. By a pure chance I run the small IT business and have the UFB business connection in our office through Kordia which is not significantly more expensive and comes with the professional grade Cisco integrated service router as their service delivery point. In my opinion, the term "residential" is very often used just as an excuse for the suboptimal ISP service who choose not to implement proper IT governance and operational procedures.

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#1479708 27-Jan-2016 10:48

freitasm:

If you can't get your fibre service back, is the 2degrees mobile broadband ($55/60GB + $$$ for modem) an option that you could charge back to the buyer?

You mean Skinny $55/60GB ? Or have I missed 2degrees matching it ?

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#1479711 27-Jan-2016 10:49

Ah, yes, Skinny - sorry.

But Steve's suggestion that if this was the outcome of a buyer's initiated action then ask them to pay for the active connection (if it's working).

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#1479718 27-Jan-2016 11:02

Frane:

In other words, this simply means the system in place is vulnerable to the brute force attack. Is there anyone in charge of security assessment there, hello?

With all due respect you clearly have very little understanding of how the process and Chorus portal work. Considering it's a private portal that can only be accessed by authorised users a security assessment would identify absolutely no issues with this process. Many aspects of the entire IT industry are based on trust with a full audit trail, and this is no different.

Frane

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#1479742 27-Jan-2016 11:42

sbiddle: With all due respect you clearly have very little understanding of how the process and Chorus portal work

The email I have just received from the buyer's ISP provisioning coordinator clearly demonstrates how Chorus works:

[i]I have contacted chorus this morning as they have accidently swapped over the existing fibre services prematurely. The requested date for this order was scheduled for the 26th of February however they completed this on the 26th of January.

Chorus have ensured me they are going to rectify this in the next 1-2 hours and restore services to original state/provider. Apologizes for any inconvenience this caused.[/i]

Enough said.

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