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Topic # 58919 23-Mar-2010 13:29
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Despite the problems with XT, I really need the functionality it provides and I was finally right on the verge of joining when I heard that Telecom was intending to implement the Internet filter.


I absolutely do not understand the obsessive stampede to impose this stupid and pointless technology on free citizens of New Zealand who do not need or want it. I especially do not like the attempts currently underway to sneak it in through the back door as quickly and quietly as possible. How 'voluntary' can such a thing be if you are dependent on the ISP that 'volunteers' to force you to use it?



Detailed discussions of this issue can be found elsewhere. Filtering should be done at the home level if at all, its not the business of government,  the filter is deceptive and creates a false sense of security, it can't stop the exchange of most child abuse images, anyone can bypass it with a proxy, etc. etc.



I just want to make it known as publicly as possible that the Internet filter is the reason I will not be doing business with Telecom now or in the future. Those pushing this particular idiocy are either incredibly misinformed or pursuing a hidden agenda. The filter is a lie and ISPs that implement it are in my sincere opinion acting in a cowardly and dishonest manner.



 



 




I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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BDFL - Memuneh
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  Reply # 310208 23-Mar-2010 13:42
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In this case make sure you add TelstraClear and Vodafone to your list of "blacklisted" companies.




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  Reply # 310267 23-Mar-2010 15:37
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The only balanced report I have seen on this topic was in Saturday's NZ Herald http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10633115 

 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 310529 24-Mar-2010 08:31
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If you don't go to child pornography sites then you probably wont notice.

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  Reply # 310533 24-Mar-2010 08:35
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DrJosh: If you don't go to child pornography sites then you probably wont notice.


Oh dear.  The naive in our midst!!!




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Old3eyes




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  Reply # 310629 24-Mar-2010 10:41
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Obviously if every ISP adopts this nonsense then I won't have much choice if I want to get on-line at all. Fortunately my own ISP (Orcon) has exhibited some rare common sense about this. Maybe others would do the same if droves of customers migrate as a result. In any case this is an important matter of principle to me and I strongly feel it should be aired as much as possible.

In the meantime, if I did want to visit a child pornography site (which I most emphatically do not), then I would just do what all the paedos do and use an encrypted VPN. Anyone (like your average 8 year-old) can now download and use a portable Tor browser which requires no setting up at all. That's what makes this whole filtering business so unbelievably stupid. Do the people pushing this seriously believe that those who want to visit banned sites won't figure out how in very short order?





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  Reply # 310630 24-Mar-2010 10:43
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It's not stupid for them. My fear is that it's only a foot on the door. Once filtering is in place, what guarantees we have the government of the day won't

a) extend the filter to be mandatory
b) add whatever domains/IP they don't agree with to the list
c) scrap the oversight committee

Once you give government any power it's really hard to take it away...




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Reply # 310636 24-Mar-2010 10:52
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DrJosh: If you don't go to child pornography sites then you probably wont notice.


While that's likely true, that ain't the issue of course. At the moment that's what it does (and good on it), but what about in the future? Perhaps a future Govt doesn't like the opposition, etc, etc. If it gets corrupted thats the problem.

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  Reply # 312077 28-Mar-2010 16:40
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Equally as important as the fact that it could be extended to cover things that shouldn't be blocked is the fact that it doesn't work.

If you look at what happened in Australia, they had a massive drop in speed (around 40% IIRC), and on top of this, when the blacklist was leaked it was found there were a massive number of legal websites (ranging from gay pornography to a Queensland dentist). And worse still is how easy it was to circumvent, since no open proxies were on the blacklist, and even ALL of them were (which is practically impossible), there's still VPN's, tor, freenet, p2p etc.

It's an idea that doesn't work, and like many other technologies being implemented these days, only hurts those who aren't breaking the law, whilst only providing a minor annoyance for those who are. 

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  Reply # 312168 28-Mar-2010 20:04
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Crucius: Equally as important as the fact that it could be extended to cover things that shouldn't be blocked is the fact that it doesn't work.

If you look at what happened in Australia, they had a massive drop in speed (around 40% IIRC), and on top of this, when the blacklist was leaked it was found there were a massive number of legal websites (ranging from gay pornography to a Queensland dentist). And worse still is how easy it was to circumvent, since no open proxies were on the blacklist, and even ALL of them were (which is practically impossible), there's still VPN's, tor, freenet, p2p etc.

It's an idea that doesn't work, and like many other technologies being implemented these days, only hurts those who aren't breaking the law, whilst only providing a minor annoyance for those who are. 


+1

I agree with all of this, and it's why internet filtering isn't sitting well with me. At the moment, it looks voluntary but I'm wary that the government will make it mandatory later on, and then the dominoes fall... 

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  Reply # 312407 29-Mar-2010 14:26
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Crucius: [snip]
If you look at what happened in Australia, they had a massive drop in speed (around 40% IIRC), [snip] 


Can you cite your (current) sources for this as I believe that the speed issues were massively overblown and the current methods for this process have virtually no speed impact. I'd say "no impact at all" except someone somewhere may be able to show a miniscule site latency change due to a different size BGP table"

Cheers - N

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  Reply # 312432 29-Mar-2010 15:35
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A good question.

After doing some research into it, it seems the results of the recent trials suggest no problems, but that at no time was the equipment under any great load, and with the trial method being easily circumvented. (http://newmatilda.com/2009/12/16/conroys-clean-feed-wont-block)

On top of this, the results of the trial are not statistically significant (http://www.arnnet.com.au/article/312845/statistics_experts_label_isp_filtering_trials_unscientific/)

 
Moreover, the filter only filters http traffic, and only has around 1300 urls on the list, and to be perfectly honest, I think there are far more effective ways to use 45 million dollars to stop such a small number. 

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  Reply # 312452 29-Mar-2010 16:01
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Crucius: A good question.

After doing some research into it, it seems the results of the recent trials suggest no problems, but that at no time was the equipment under any great load, and with the trial method being easily circumvented. (http://newmatilda.com/2009/12/16/conroys-clean-feed-wont-block)

On top of this, the results of the trial are not statistically significant (http://www.arnnet.com.au/article/312845/statistics_experts_label_isp_filtering_trials_unscientific/)

 
Moreover, the filter only filters http traffic, and only has around 1300 urls on the list, and to be perfectly honest, I think there are far more effective ways to use 45 million dollars to stop such a small number. 


Chuckle... I certainly don't disagree with the futility of the effort, but wanted to make sure I hadn't misunderstood the technical impact on non-listed sites... Which, to be clear now, is virtually zero.

Certainly I would think that there are better ways to spend $45m.

Cheers - N

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