Telecom demerger looks imminent

Forums › Spark New Zealand › Telecom demerger looks imminent

willnz

573 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 3

Trusted

Topic # 65318 2-Aug-2010 16:56

Not only have Telecom submitted a revised UFB proposal to the Government proposing that Telecom be structurally separated so they can take part in the initiative, but they also seem to have reserved several company names:

CHORUS LIMITED
CHORUS GROUP LIMITED
CHORUS FINANCE LIMITED
CHORUS HOLDINGS LIMITED

Looks like it's may be gonna happen fairly soon (well, fairly soon in the commercial world, anyway).

1 | 2

8027 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 387

Trusted

Subscriber

Reply # 361734 2-Aug-2010 17:08

It's a tempting option but we should be very wary of Chorus2 having an overly bloated cost and management structure which results in high wholesale prices for services.

End user prices are going to have to be reasonable to drive uptake.

Lias

3452 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1916

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

Reply # 361758 2-Aug-2010 17:39

Do not like.. Telecom has consistently shown disregard for its customers, and only seems to care about extorting every last cent it can for its shareholders.

I seriously hope the government rejects their bid, and they die off like other evil empires.

Information wants to be free. The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.

Zeon

3415 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 405

Trusted

Reply # 361775 2-Aug-2010 18:00

It's probably the best option from a rational view considering they have so much infrastructure already. However in saying that I agree with Ragnor in that there is risk that they will become another monopoly. At least with regional operators you do have some kind of competitive nature e.g. my city's broadband is better or lets attract new businesses to the area with cheap 1gbps or whatever.

nickb800

2044 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 348

Trusted

Reply # 361811 2-Aug-2010 18:33

Lias: Do not like.. Telecom has consistently shown disregard for its customers, and only seems to care about extorting every last cent it can for its shareholders.

Do you expect Vodafone/Axia to be any different?

Regs

Infrastructure Geek
4057 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 195

Trusted

Microsoft NZ

Subscriber

Reply # 361980 2-Aug-2010 22:18

Lias: Do not like.. Telecom has consistently shown disregard for its customers, and only seems to care about extorting every last cent it can for its shareholders.

I seriously hope the government rejects their bid, and they die off like other evil empires.

i hope you do all your fruit shopping out in the country direct from the farms, slaughter and butcher your own meat, have your own solar panels, collect your own rainwater, compost and bury your own trash and build your own transport out of bits of wood.... otherwise you'd be supporting countless other 'evil empires' who are only interested in making a buck for their shareholders.

Technical Evangelist
Microsoft NZ
about.me/nzregs
Twitter: @nzregs

Zeon

3415 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 405

Trusted

Reply # 361982 2-Aug-2010 22:21

Regs:
Lias: Do not like.. Telecom has consistently shown disregard for its customers, and only seems to care about extorting every last cent it can for its shareholders.

I seriously hope the government rejects their bid, and they die off like other evil empires.

i hope you do all your fruit shopping out in the country direct from the farms, slaughter and butcher your own meat, have your own solar panels, collect your own rainwater, compost and bury your own trash and build your own transport out of bits of wood.... otherwise you'd be supporting countless other 'evil empires' who are only interested in making a buck for their shareholders.

Haha I lol'd

Lias

3452 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1916

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

Reply # 362143 3-Aug-2010 10:11

Regs:
Lias: Do not like.. Telecom has consistently shown disregard for its customers, and only seems to care about extorting every last cent it can for its shareholders.

I seriously hope the government rejects their bid, and they die off like other evil empires.

i hope you do all your fruit shopping out in the country direct from the farms, slaughter and butcher your own meat, have your own solar panels, collect your own rainwater, compost and bury your own trash and build your own transport out of bits of wood.... otherwise you'd be supporting countless other 'evil empires' who are only interested in making a buck for their shareholders.

Few have a record as bad as Telecom.

Information wants to be free. The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.

Regs

Infrastructure Geek
4057 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 195

Trusted

Microsoft NZ

Subscriber

Reply # 362186 3-Aug-2010 11:16

Lias:
Few have a record as bad as Telecom.

first of all comparing telecom as a whole to other companies is really not comparing apples to apples... as telecom comprises several 'businesses'. if you take the mobile business and compare it to vodafone's mobile business - then there isnt that much difference. If you take fixed calling and compare to telstraclear, not much difference there either. take the ISP xtra, compare to other large ISPs - once again, much the same.

telecom is still running - unlike several failed companies over the past years - contributing to the economy and paying its staff, and paying its debts. A good portion of telecom is owned by NZ investors too (unlike vodafone and telstraclear). Perhaps you should heap more of your hate upon the failed companies such as the many finance companies, the feltex's, the LWR's, any number of builders/developers and even the likes of all black dan carters GAS clothing which have departed owning millions to regular kiwis. If Telecom ran their business in a way that perhaps you would like them to, they might have gone the way of these failed companies also.

the way i see it, if telecom misses out on UFB it will go one of two ways. it will either eventually go bust as its network becomes redundant (thus seriously hurting the NZ economy), or it will destroy other UFB companies, pricing them out of the market by offering cheaper options over copper in order to maintain its market share and prevent the UFB companies from gaining any traction. when it comes down to it, most consumers dont give a cr4p about fibre - they only care about $$. if sticking with adsl is significantly cheaper, then thats what they will do. The only way fibre companies will get any traction is by basically giving their product away, below cost, for several years and i dont think they could sustain those sorts of costs for very long. if the govt has to bail them out to the tune of more billions, then that isnt particularly desireable either.

Technical Evangelist
Microsoft NZ
about.me/nzregs
Twitter: @nzregs

Lias

3452 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1916

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

Reply # 362252 3-Aug-2010 11:58

Regs:
Lias:
Few have a record as bad as Telecom.

first of all comparing telecom as a whole to other companies is really not comparing apples to apples... as telecom comprises several 'businesses'.

I compare it to my lines company. WEL Networks is 100% owned by WELEnergy Trust, controlled by a publically elected body, who are answerable to the community. The pour millions of dollars of "profit" back into the community via discounts and community grants.

I believe all utility companies should be based on a similar model. Telecom should be left to die, and it should be replaced by a company that makes profits for its customers and the wider community, not shareholders.

Telcos should be either able to own infrastructure, or provide retail service, much like exists with power currently. The big change should be that the retail companies should all be "profit for the community" models like WEL, rather than greedy SOE's like we have now :-) By all means let private enterprise compete, but only if it can compete with an SOE that is designed to not make a profit. It can only lead to cheaper prices for consumers, and less profit for rich pricks.

Information wants to be free. The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.

oxnsox

1923 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 139

Reply # 362293 3-Aug-2010 12:38

Whilst I believe this would be better for us users I see a couple of things that make me a little wary.

Firstly if Chorus was seperated, what are the chances that a government decides that this infrastructure should be in public hands.... and whilst that maybe the ideal scenario, it means we'll sometime be headed not just for the cost of the UFB but also the cost of buying back (1984 anyone??).

Secondly. It occurs to me that the current Chorus business, whilst encumbered with maintaining all the current copper and fibre infrastructure, is actually a bit of a cash cow for TCNZ.... otherwise why would they be soo reluctant to relinquish it???? Sure the revenue future maybe in wireless offerings and infrastructure. as people become more mobile, but the fibre/copper backhaul will always have a high residual value because it will continue to deliver bandwidth to soo many places....

Regs

Infrastructure Geek
4057 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 195

Trusted

Microsoft NZ

Subscriber

Reply # 362324 3-Aug-2010 13:18

Lias:
Regs:
Lias:
Few have a record as bad as Telecom.

first of all comparing telecom as a whole to other companies is really not comparing apples to apples... as telecom comprises several 'businesses'.

I compare it to my lines company. WEL Networks is 100% owned by WELEnergy Trust, controlled by a publically elected body, who are answerable to the community. The pour millions of dollars of "profit" back into the community via discounts and community grants.

I believe all utility companies should be based on a similar model. Telecom should be left to die, and it should be replaced by a company that makes profits for its customers and the wider community, not shareholders.

Telcos should be either able to own infrastructure, or provide retail service, much like exists with power currently. The big change should be that the retail companies should all be "profit for the community" models like WEL, rather than greedy SOE's like we have now :-) By all means let private enterprise compete, but only if it can compete with an SOE that is designed to not make a profit. It can only lead to cheaper prices for consumers, and less profit for rich pricks.

WEL Networks is very much in the minority. Other lines companies and utilities are for-profit companies, some in foreign ownership.

as far as i'm concerned, if you want to live somewhere where companies are not there to make profit and there is less profit for 'rich pricks', then grab a time machine and head back a few years to china or russia and see how well you like that model.

Technical Evangelist
Microsoft NZ
about.me/nzregs
Twitter: @nzregs

Lias

3452 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1916

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

Reply # 362327 3-Aug-2010 13:23

Regs:

WEL Networks is very much in the minority. Other lines companies and utilities are for-profit companies, some in foreign ownership.

as far as i'm concerned, if you want to live somewhere where companies are not there to make profit and there is less profit for 'rich pricks', then grab a time machine and head back a few years to china or russia and see how well you like that model.

I have no problem with companies making a profit in general, I just strongly object to massive profits being gouged on essential infrastructure. I firmly believe our governments need to force the transfer of all core national infrastructure assets into "non profits" like WEL. Power, water, roading, rail, telecoms, ports, airports, etc should simply not be in private or for profit ownership, or at the very least one player in the market should be a publically owned non profit and the other companies will need to compete against it.

Information wants to be free. The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.

Zeon

3415 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 405

Trusted

Reply # 362346 3-Aug-2010 13:44

Lias:
Regs:

WEL Networks is very much in the minority. Other lines companies and utilities are for-profit companies, some in foreign ownership.

as far as i'm concerned, if you want to live somewhere where companies are not there to make profit and there is less profit for 'rich pricks', then grab a time machine and head back a few years to china or russia and see how well you like that model.

I have no problem with companies making a profit in general, I just strongly object to massive profits being gouged on essential infrastructure. I firmly believe our governments need to force the transfer of all core national infrastructure assets into "non profits" like WEL. Power, water, roading, rail, telecoms, ports, airports, etc should simply not be in private or for profit ownership, or at the very least one player in the market should be a publically owned non profit and the other companies will need to compete against it.

While Telecom may have been making a profit its hardly done well for its owners. Imagine if you owned Telecom shares when they were once $10 each and now can barely break $2. Their profit over the years would never make up for that.

And I sense a big of jelousy/tall-poppy syndrome going on here. If a national asset is so important and is monopolized with high prices then you will likely get competition. Ports for example, airports etc. are competitive. National assets which are obviously not important or irrelevant won't face competition simply for the fact that they aren't important e.g. Rail.

The problem with Telecom not facing competition for so long was partly due to public bodies either actively blocking or not encouraging competitive investment e.g. Telstra Clear and RMA in Auckland

NonprayingMantis

6434 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1571

Reply # 362503 3-Aug-2010 16:30

Lias:

Few have a record as bad as Telecom.

Most of the bad record is from people who no longer work there.

Lias

3452 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1916

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

Reply # 362583 3-Aug-2010 19:03

NonprayingMantis:
Lias:

Few have a record as bad as Telecom.

Most of the bad record is from people who no longer work there.

So the people who canceled the big itme plan, and didnt allow existing customers to stay on it have all been fired?
Every person responsible for the XT debarcle, and choosing Alcatel Lucent in the first place has been fired?

Somehow I doubt it.. "Do Evil" is institutional at Telecom, and wont magically go away, until the mindset of "make money for shareholders at all costs" is gone.

FWIW I know many ex Telecom employees, and they pretty much all agree Telecom is a behemoth of institutionalized corruption. Thats across a wide range to from linesmen to call centre, geni, computerland, and even middle management..

Information wants to be free. The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.

1 | 2