[WXC/VFX] VFX Question

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wmoore

510 posts

Ultimate Geek

#11687 6-Feb-2007 15:37

Hi

Firstly I would just like to say I am a very happy xnet customer. I have Broadband, Tolls and VFX with the company.
VFX has been good..love the features for what you pay...But sometimes when I ring my parents in warkworth the call sometimes can get a bit patchy ie drop outs. I do ring during peak times that the internet is used..is this the reason ? or is it their phone line
(they live about 8km out of warkworth) or would moving to the flood plan help ? Also I was on a local call and after about 40 mins we lost the connection....Is that a ADSL issue.

More Info

Linksys SPA2102
Asus Adsl router
Exchange (Don buck rd, Massey)

"In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." -
-- Abraham lincoln

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WorldxChange

#59869 6-Feb-2007 16:04

wmoore: Hi

Firstly I would just like to say I am a very happy xnet customer. I have Broadband, Tolls and VFX with the company.
VFX has been good..love the features for what you pay...But sometimes when I ring my parents in warkworth the call sometimes can get a bit patchy ie drop outs. I do ring during peak times that the internet is used..is this the reason ? or is it their phone line
(they live about 8km out of warkworth) or would moving to the flood plan help ? Also I was on a local call and after about 40 mins we lost the connection....Is that a ADSL issue.

More Info

Linksys SPA2102
Asus Adsl router
Exchange (Don buck rd, Massey)

Hi,

First questions,
1. Does this happen only during peak times ?
2. Does this happen when you are on the net at the same time ?

If the answer to 1 is yes I would take a guess, most likely if it only happens during peak times it may be overloading of DSL in your area due to peak loading, nothing to do with your Parents line, for the call drop out if you give details we can run some checks just to see what happened to call, we however reliant on the DSL being constant so the conjestion issue's can effect the service

If the answer to 2 is yes it could be because of your router / SPA2102 config , not using QOS (Quality of Service) to assign priority to the VOIP service going to and from the SPA2102, if you ring our help desk they could assist you with this

Yes I am a employee of WxC (My Profile) ... but I do have my own opinions as well

https://www.facebook.com/wxccommunications

wmoore

510 posts

Ultimate Geek

#59885 6-Feb-2007 17:41

maverick:
wmoore: Hi

Firstly I would just like to say I am a very happy xnet customer. I have Broadband, Tolls and VFX with the company.
VFX has been good..love the features for what you pay...But sometimes when I ring my parents in warkworth the call sometimes can get a bit patchy ie drop outs. I do ring during peak times that the internet is used..is this the reason ? or is it their phone line
(they live about 8km out of warkworth) or would moving to the flood plan help ? Also I was on a local call and after about 40 mins we lost the connection....Is that a ADSL issue.

More Info

Linksys SPA2102
Asus Adsl router
Exchange (Don buck rd, Massey)

Hi,

First questions,
1. Does this happen only during peak times ?
2. Does this happen when you are on the net at the same time ?

If the answer to 1 is yes I would take a guess, most likely if it only happens during peak times it may be overloading of DSL in your area due to peak loading, nothing to do with your Parents line, for the call drop out if you give details we can run some checks just to see what happened to call, we however reliant on the DSL being constant so the conjestion issue's can effect the service

If the answer to 2 is yes it could be because of your router / SPA2102 config , not using QOS (Quality of Service) to assign priority to the VOIP service going to and from the SPA2102, if you ring our help desk they could assist you with this

It normally happens when I am on the net, and I only seem to ring them during peak times. Is the QoS set up in the Linksys or my asus ?

"In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." -
-- Abraham lincoln

maverick

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WorldxChange

#59887 6-Feb-2007 18:16

Quite possibly it will be QOS on your router, basically what happens is that all the traffic between your PC (Surfing the net) and the SPA2102 (VOIP Traffic) is being shared across your router with no priority getting being given to the Voice so any delay in passing the traffic could be causing the issue,

The QOS can probably be setup on your router, if you phone our helpdesk tomorrow they can assist you if you are having isues

Yes I am a employee of WxC (My Profile) ... but I do have my own opinions as well

https://www.facebook.com/wxccommunications

grant_k

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#59901 6-Feb-2007 20:21

wmoore: ...or would moving to the flood plan help ?

YES, absolutely!

If you are on the STREAM or RIVER plans, they only have 128kbps upstream, and this is a bit marginal especially if there is other internet traffic going through at the same time e.g. you receive a large e-mail attachment.

I have 2 sites running VFX:

1) On Kordia Wireless with 128kbps upstream at present (trying to get it upgraded). In order to get good call quality with VFX, I have had to buy a router with Bandwidth Management, and now it is OK.

2) On Paradise Net with Full Speed in both directions (moving to XNET Flood in a month or so). At this site we just have simple network switches with no QoS or Prioritisation of voice packets. Yet everything works perfectly even though we sometimes have 3 channels of VoIP working simultaneously with other internet traffic.

Basically there is bandwidth to burn on the XNET Flood plan and if you upgrade, you shouldn't have any worries.

As a first step though, you may as well enlist the Help Desk's assistance and try the QoS idea. You may find that your Asus router is not smart enough to prioritise VFX voice packets. If it works though, you can stay on the River plan and save a little bit of money.

If however you are still having problems, I would definitely suggest upgrading to the XNET Flood plan.

crichton

111 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 5

#60076 7-Feb-2007 22:33

Re: "If you are on the STREAM or RIVER plans, they only have 128kbps upstream, and this is a bit marginal especially if there is other internet traffic going through at the same time e.g. you receive a large e-mail attachment."

Why do you consider 128kbps to be marginal - the Xnet FAQ mentions this:

A. Being throttled back should not affect the quality of your call. Xnet VFX requires less than half of the 64Kbps throttled speed.

So what is the real situation with VFX. Do we need to go larger?

Crichton

grant_k

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#60078 7-Feb-2007 23:17

crichton: Why do you consider 128kbps to be marginal - the Xnet FAQ mentions this:
A. Being throttled back should not affect the quality of your call. Xnet VFX requires less than half of the 64Kbps throttled speed.
So what is the real situation with VFX. Do we need to go larger?

OK, fair question...

I have done quite a bit of experimenting with VFX Call Quality while downloading/uploading.

With a 128kbps upstream pipe, if you attempt to make a VFX call while sending a decent-sized e-mail attachment (say 0.5MB or larger), the person you are calling will not be able to understand you until the attachment has been sent.

It's true that VFX only needs around 30 or 35kbps while using the G729a codec, but in the presence of other traffic such as outgoing e-mail attachments to a local SMTP server, the upstream link becomes saturated and there is a large degree of packet loss. The e-mail program doesn't care, it just retries, however VFX uses a RTP (Real Time Protocol) which is highly sensitive to packet loss, exactly the same as Skype or any other VoIP application.

The only way I found to get around this problem is to use a router with good QoS functions or even better -- full-blown Bandwidth Management.

If you switch to a plan with Full Speed upstream (typically 500kbps or more), the link doesn't seem to become saturated when sending e-mail attachments. In any case, the transfer occurs 4 or 5 times more quickly so it is nowhere near so noticeable. We have found that simple switches (but not hubs) are OK on the LAN in this situation.

New World

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wmoore

510 posts

Ultimate Geek

#60193 9-Feb-2007 00:41

Hi again

If my Router doesn't have QoS..What brands and models do people recommend ?

Thanks

"In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." -
-- Abraham lincoln

maverick

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WorldxChange

#60203 9-Feb-2007 07:18

For an all in one device the Linksys Wag54gp2 has the 2 Phone lines built in and does the QOS for you on the voice side, other users of the service may want to recommend other models

Yes I am a employee of WxC (My Profile) ... but I do have my own opinions as well

https://www.facebook.com/wxccommunications

coffeebaron

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Lifetime subscriber

#60296 9-Feb-2007 21:16

I use a Dynalink RTA1025W ADSL Wireless router with PAP2T. The Dynalink is a good all rounder at a good price. Has built in QoS and can reserve some bandwidth for VOIP. I also have 512 up-link on my broadband connection which makes a huge difference for VOIP.

The other day I was busy downloading Office 2007 trial - two big files simultaneously and talked on the phone (VFX) at the same time no problems.

The other advantage with separate router and VOIP box is when you go away, you take your VOIP (VFX) box with you :)

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sidney

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#60540 12-Feb-2007 15:26

maverick: For an all in one device the Linksys Wag54gp2 has the 2 Phone lines built in and does the QOS for you on the voice side

wmoore said that he/she is using a LinkSys SPA-2102. Coincidentally I just moved to about 8km outside Warkworth and I am also just starting to use VFX with a LinkSys 2102. No, I am not wmoore's parent

I see that the 2102 settings include QOS. I have the boxes plugged in like this:

IPStar satellite modem --> LinkSys SPA-2102 --> LinkSys WRT54GL wireless adapter --> various home computers

The satellite modem is configured with NAT turned off, which required the ISP to give me my static ip on a /30 subnet. The WRT54GL is in bridge mode, which means that the cable from the SPA-2102 plugs into one of its LAN ports and there is no NAT there either. That makes all traffic pass through the 2102, which then can handle the QOS.

As far as I can tell the SPA-2102 plugged into a LAN port of the WRT54GL in bridge mode should be just about equivalent to what you say the Wag54gp2 does in one box. I already had the WRT54GL so I didn't want to pay for an all-in-one box.

Do you have recommendations as to how to set the QOS on the SPA-2102 configured like this?

I notice that there is newer firmware at the LinkSys site than what came with the box. Can I or should I upgrade, or does your locked in configuration require that I stay with the firmware version I have until you decide to upgrade it? One of the changes in the newer versions according to the change log is that they dropped CBQ mode QOS because of performance and improved TBF mode.

By the way, I'm still experimenting with getting acceptable voip service over the satellite conection. I gather that there is not a lot of experience with getting that to work. I'll post here once I find out the magic combination. With round-trip latency of well over a second and an effective upload speed at times below 128Kbps, getting any understandable voice connection is a challenge, but I seem to be making headway.

-- sidney

grant_k

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#60546 12-Feb-2007 17:42

This exact same topic (how to configure the SPA2102) was dealt with a few weeks back on this thread:

http://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?ForumId=65&TopicId=11285

After quite a lot of playing around, I couldn't get the BRIDGE mode to work in the SPA2102, but I'm not sure from your post whether you mean Bridge Mode in the SPA2102 or your WRT54GL?

I ended up only using the WAN port on the SPA2102 (labelled "Internet") and everything is now working sweetly.

As you will see from the above thread, WxC advise leaving QOS set to the Default which is NONE. This is one of the settings that will be locked down by them once your SPA2102 has been "provisioned".

Please do let us know how you get on using VFX over satellite, I will be most interested to hear about that.

Because you have very limited Upstream Bandwidth, you might like to look at:

www.wirelessnation.co.nz

who offer plans with 1Mbps upstream but still at very reasonable prices. I believe they use the same IPSTAR satellite as all other Broadband via Satellite ISPs in NZ.

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wmoore

510 posts

Ultimate Geek

#60552 12-Feb-2007 18:11

sidney:
maverick: For an all in one device the Linksys Wag54gp2 has the 2 Phone lines built in and does the QOS for you on the voice side

wmoore said that he/she is using a LinkSys SPA-2102. Coincidentally I just moved to about 8km outside Warkworth and I am also just starting to use VFX with a LinkSys 2102. No, I am not wmoore's parent

I see that the 2102 settings include QOS. I have the boxes plugged in like this:

IPStar satellite modem --> LinkSys SPA-2102 --> LinkSys WRT54GL wireless adapter --> various home computers

The satellite modem is configured with NAT turned off, which required the ISP to give me my static ip on a /30 subnet. The WRT54GL is in bridge mode, which means that the cable from the SPA-2102 plugs into one of its LAN ports and there is no NAT there either. That makes all traffic pass through the 2102, which then can handle the QOS.

As far as I can tell the SPA-2102 plugged into a LAN port of the WRT54GL in bridge mode should be just about equivalent to what you say the Wag54gp2 does in one box. I already had the WRT54GL so I didn't want to pay for an all-in-one box.

Do you have recommendations as to how to set the QOS on the SPA-2102 configured like this?

I notice that there is newer firmware at the LinkSys site than what came with the box. Can I or should I upgrade, or does your locked in configuration require that I stay with the firmware version I have until you decide to upgrade it? One of the changes in the newer versions according to the change log is that they dropped CBQ mode QOS because of performance and improved TBF mode.

By the way, I'm still experimenting with getting acceptable voip service over the satellite conection. I gather that there is not a lot of experience with getting that to work. I'll post here once I find out the magic combination. With round-trip latency of well over a second and an effective upload speed at times below 128Kbps, getting any understandable voice connection is a challenge, but I seem to be making headway.

-- sidney

Hi sidney and everyone

My parents live on Old Kaipara Rd...Trying to convince them to get sat broadband..wirelessnation looks the best...My father is update his computer soon, so it will be a good time to do it.
As for me I have gone to the flood plan, which seems to help...I haven't done anything about QoS on my ASUS AAM6000EV
(which I don't think has it)???? So maybe I need to update the ASUS.

Warrick

"In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." -
-- Abraham lincoln

sidney

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#60560 12-Feb-2007 19:06

wmoore:
My parents live on Old Kaipara Rd...Trying to convince them to get sat broadband..wirelessnation looks the best.

I live on Smyth Rd, off of Kaipara Flats Rd, not far from them. I just posted a long message which I don't see ... I won't repeat what I said right now in case it is just delayed, but I did talk about some serious reservations I have about WirelessNation and how I am happy with the service from ICONZ even if they don't match WIrelessNation's price.

As for QOS, I also explained my configuration which I think is best if you are going to use QOS, as it relies on the QOS built in to the SPA2102 which should be optimised for doing what y9u want, which is to give voice priority over other Internetuse.

-- sidney

grant_k

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#60564 12-Feb-2007 19:20

sidney: As for QOS, I also explained my configuration which I think is best if you are going to use QOS, as it relies on the QOS built in to the SPA2102 which should be optimised for doing what y9u want, which is to give voice priority over other Internetuse.

Agreed. I would have liked to use the QoS features of the SPA2102, but in order to do that, you need to connect it as a Router i.e. using both LAN and WAN ports so it can intercept and prioritise the other traffic.

If you manage to get that to work, I would like to know how because I spent the best part of a day trying and no matter what I did, it wasn't possible to get connectivity through the SPA2102 to the internet when it was used as a router.

Admittedly, I was trying to do it using an ADSL router (I tried normal mode, bridge mode with or without NAT in the ADSL router) because that was also needed to support the PPPoA system used by Telecom's ADSL network. Maybe it will work for you because it sounds like your satellite connection uses VLAN mode in the same way as my Kordia Extend wireless transceiver (at another site) which is also connected via ICONZ.

Regarding your post going missing, I have encountered this many times and mentioned it previously in a thread. It happens just often enough to be annoying. I have got into the habit of pressing CTRL-A (to mark all the text in my post) then CTRL-C to copy it to the clipboard BEFORE clicking POST REPLY.

Then if Geekzone eats my post, I can easily open a new reply and Paste the vapourised text into the window then clock POST REPLY again. In my experience, it ALWAYS works the second time.

sidney

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#60581 12-Feb-2007 22:21

Grant17: it sounds like your satellite connection uses VLAN mode in the same way as my Kordia Extend wireless transceiver (at another site) which is also connected via ICONZ.

Exactly. ICONZ had to set me up with a /30 subnet instead of a single static ip address. That is a subnet of four ip addresses. As with all subnets the first and last address are reserved, which leaves one ip address to be assigned to the modem which acts a gateway and one ip address that is given to the SPA2102 WAN port. The modem is configured with NAT turned off. You can only do that if your ISP is willing to set you up that way. The SPA2102 can itself handle PPoE, which would let you put the DSL modem in plain bridge mode and not require a subnet from your ISP, but te SPA2102 cannot handle PPoA. I've read that some DSL modems have a "half-bridge" mode just for this type of situation in which the modem handles the PPoE or PPoA login, then hands everything over to the next device. If your modem could do that you could plug it in to the WAN (Internet) port of the SPA-2102 and run the LAN (ethernet) port out to the rest of your local network.

There are two points to this. One is to have all traffic go through the SPA2102, connected to the Internet via the Internet port and to the rest of your local network through the LAN (ethernet) port of the SPA2102. That gives the SPA2102 complete control so it can limit traffic on the LAN when it needs to keep the bandwidth clear for a phone call.

The other, more minor point, is to avoid having two NATs in series in your system by having the WAN port on the SPA2102 be assigned a public ip address using whatever method you can. If you can't do that, you can try a double-NAT setup anyway and see if anything breaks. You won't be able to forward any ports to the public from any of your computers, but if you don't want to run a server that might make no practical difference. To do that you take the ethernet cable coming out of the DSL modem and plug the other end into the SPA2102 WAN port. You configure the SPA2102 with the default settings that will NAT between the WAN port and the LAN port and will provide a DHCP server on the LAN port. Then you plug an ethernet cable into the SPA2102's LAN port and the other end into your ethernet switch, or into one of the LAN ports of a wireless access point and router configured in bridge mode. I don't think that there is enough performance hit in double NAT to worry about, just the lost of functionality that you can not port-forward a local service to the outside world.

Oh, I just looked up information about the LinkSys Wag54gp2 that maverick suggested and I see that it includes a PPPoA capable DSL modem as well as two line voip ATA and four port router and wireless access point all in one box. So it would do everything for you including QOS. You could sell your existing boxes on Trademe.

-- sidney

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