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94 posts

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Topic # 27175 16-Oct-2008 15:53
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The New Zealand CEO of the world's largest mobile operator Mr Russell Stanners, claims today that the competitor's T3G network was "the world's best 3G network in a media campaign". "It existed in the media, but not in the field," he says.

http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/netw/3B975CFEB2A9CB8FCC2574E300676BE6

Well Mr Stanners, as a best of breed customer (GSM for voice, EVDO for data), all I can say is...

...what a &%#$ (we're you misquoted??)

"I want my; I want my; I want my nationwide 3G..." (Apologies to Sting)

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646 posts

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  Reply # 171679 16-Oct-2008 21:03
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Can i say that Russell is full of crap to be honest, in the field EVDO still kicks the 3G offering of Vodafone due to the nature of its technology.... I find those comments apsolute bollocks! In the cities certainly they have uped their game but even then EVDO is certainly competitive but rurally... EVDO is still king for now!

I have two words for Russell in regards to Telecoms w850 network launch ... FIBRE BACKHAUL

Thats the difference between a world class network and one that looks, sounds and is promoted as world class, but is not all that.

It would seem the inter network FUD has been started with utter rubbish being touted but representives... Shame they really make themselves look like snake oil sales people when the facts are shown and proven. admittidly many TNZ reps dont quite get it either but the FUD seems to be come from the red company.

FUD = Fear Uncertainty and Doubt






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  Reply # 171688 16-Oct-2008 21:27
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bbman:

I have two words for Russell in regards to Telecoms w850 network launch ... FIBRE BACKHAUL



Have all the Fibre back haul you want! This will not make things faster in the A interface (Cell to Handset) also what about IuB (interface from Node Bs back to RNCs) and also the AXCs

Fibre is not the silver bullet to Back haul on a mobile network (yes its great)

Vodafone has Fibre running to many sites around New Zealand

Transmission has changed alot over the last 24 months

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 171695 16-Oct-2008 21:37
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johnr:
bbman:

I have two words for Russell in regards to Telecoms w850 network launch ... FIBRE BACKHAUL



Have all the Fibre back haul you want! This will not make things faster in the A interface (Cell to Handset) also what about IuB (interface from Node Bs back to RNCs) and also the AXCs

Fibre is not the silver bullet to Back haul on a mobile network (yes its great)

Vodafone has Fibre running to many sites around New Zealand

Transmission has changed alot over the last 24 months


Indeed it has, i will have to do some research on this network entities so i can understand those parts better, i guess Russell is glutching at straws with the FUD but it is to be expected.

I guess the fibre is a key ingredience to the overall experience but your right there are more technical issues to contend with as well.





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  Reply # 171707 16-Oct-2008 22:16
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I've found the coverage more than adequate from when i've experienced using it, and the speeds fast enough to call broadband/3g. The only thing it lacked was a significant push on things like video calling which is missing from the usual 3G image.

In comparison to vodafone which seemed to have minimal coverage throughout our south island trip last year, i think Telecom's network works fine, and that as above this is FUD.

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  Reply # 171718 16-Oct-2008 22:48
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johnr: Have all the Fibre back haul you want! This will not make things faster in the A interface (Cell to Handset) also what about IuB (interface from Node Bs back to RNCs) and also the AXCs

Fibre is not the silver bullet to Back haul on a mobile network (yes its great)

Vodafone has Fibre running to many sites around New Zealand

Transmission has changed alot over the last 24 months

I'll agree with you that it's not a silver bullet; but the rest of what you have said doesn't make much sense to me.

Fibre transport for 3G networks is primarily about reducing cost and increasing scalability of each Node B/BTS site.  You can very easily carry 32xE1 from a single Node B to your AXC/RSC over fibre transport (via your preferred transport technology) vs what you can do with copper or to a certain degree microwave.

A few vendors (including Huawei and Ericsson) have Ethernet capable Node Bs and RNCs which mean you don't even need to purchase a TDM/IP transport switch these days.  In fact, a few of them even support aggregating BTS traffic into the Node B's IP uplinks, negating the need for TDM anywhere.

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  Reply # 171737 17-Oct-2008 06:55
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PenultimateHop:
johnr: Have all the Fibre back haul you want! This will not make things faster in the A interface (Cell to Handset) also what about IuB (interface from Node Bs back to RNCs) and also the AXCs

Fibre is not the silver bullet to Back haul on a mobile network (yes its great)

Vodafone has Fibre running to many sites around New Zealand

Transmission has changed alot over the last 24 months

I'll agree with you that it's not a silver bullet; but the rest of what you have said doesn't make much sense to me.

Fibre transport for 3G networks is primarily about reducing cost and increasing scalability of each Node B/BTS site.  You can very easily carry 32xE1 from a single Node B to your AXC/RSC over fibre transport (via your preferred transport technology) vs what you can do with copper or to a certain degree microwave.

A few vendors (including Huawei and Ericsson) have Ethernet capable Node Bs and RNCs which mean you don't even need to purchase a TDM/IP transport switch these days.  In fact, a few of them even support aggregating BTS traffic into the Node B's IP uplinks, negating the need for TDM anywhere.


One thing it will bring in a simplistic view which is where i was coming from is capactity! Allowing far greater numbers of connections at decent speeds than ever before.

Sure Vodafone have fibre in places in thats good, what you will see though is Telecom surge ahead in the rural areas until Vodafone makes the same investment in those areas with decent back haul and the like. But this is certainly a simple view of it and it is not the only part of the picture.

The silver bullet is 24 networks operational, HSPA working and a slight , i say slight edge in performance in each cell over Vodafones slightly higher frequency. Oh and 80 plus handsets already on the market.

I am looking forward from a business point of view to next year, when both networks have excellent offerings in 3G and new and exciting bolt on services that are not just related to mobile handsets!





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  Reply # 171745 17-Oct-2008 09:12

I was there when Russell was talking to Rob. He was talking about the launch of T3G versus the launch of W850. At launch, T3G was all about billboards, all about TV coverage and oh, the network will be built shortly. I was there (as were some of you I'm sure) and I was underwhelmed by the coverage by the handsets/devices, by the whole thing.

If memory serves the T3G campaign itself made no sense at all (it was all about the T and the G and I never got it) and was pretty quickly pulled... The chap who ran it (whose name escapes me) moved on and Kevin Kenrick ended up running it and doing a smart job.

But at launch... it was marketing more than network.

That's what Russell was talking about.

Cheers

Paul




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http://forum.vodafone.co.nz


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  Reply # 171748 17-Oct-2008 09:28
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I have had "3g" devices on both networks, used to have a harrier, then an apache with telecom.

have been with vodafone for two years now. I still cant browse or use the web via mobile like I could when on evdo,

theres a magnitude of difference.




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  Reply # 171749 17-Oct-2008 09:41
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Yes, I remember those early T3G adds. I found them to be rather misleading, as the "3G" part really implied 3rd gen network. However, they were using it to also promote all manner of 2G services. I remember a few T3G handsets, that were only capable of 2G speeds.
Certainly the CDMA network has been great for mobile broadband speeds, lower latency than WCDMA etc, but that's about as far as it got. Even remember the early days at a tech expo, where one of Vodafone' PR went head to head drag racing (mobile data) with Telecom. That's one race Telecom did win :)




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Ultimate Geek


  Reply # 171751 17-Oct-2008 09:51
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Inane, perhaps you have a fault with your handset? I would get it looked at.

At the end of this all, both networks will be able to properly compete but I don't see this resulting in any significant decrease in prices for the public - just as it has always been.

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  Reply # 171755 17-Oct-2008 10:11
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JoeBloggs:
At the end of this all, both networks will be able to properly compete but I don't see this resulting in any significant decrease in prices for the public - just as it has always been.


If we're not seeing a price decrease we should at least be getting far more value for out money.

Vodafone's on network airtime usage for example really is a joke. Last I looked it was the 2nd lowest in the entire group and that was with figures being rounded up to the nearest minute. Without this we'd probably rank at the bottom of the group table. Comparatively you're getting around 50% of the airtime you get in Aussie for the same $ value with comparative ARPU figures in both countries

I think Telecom's entry will see significantly better value for customers than we're seeing now. They do have to take Vodafone on head to head since they are the monopoly now and at the end of the day pricing is a very effective tool. T3G was an extremely bad marketing campaign, much like the GO25 campaign. Hopefully Telecom have learnt their lessons!

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Ultimate Geek


  Reply # 171757 17-Oct-2008 10:23
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I think you're probably right, we will be getting more value for our money. Unfortunately, as time has shown, when one company lowers price, the other tends to match in some way. This brings revenue down for both companies which is why they tend to resist price competition (just the basics of a duopoly). However, Telecom needs to come out all guns blazing to return profit on their WCDMA outlay. We should see some relatively impressive plans at launch.



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Master Geek


  Reply # 171765 17-Oct-2008 10:56
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PaulBrislen:

But at launch... it was marketing more than network.

That's what Russell was talking about.

Cheers

Paul


Stones : Glass Houses

I think there are quite a few contributors to this forum with examples of your employer launching products and services with *considerably* more marketing gee-whiz than actual in the field performance.

From memory Ovum recently described the Voda New Zealand mobile data experience as "substantially less than optimal" which is certainly my experience and why I choose EVDO for mobile data.

I'm sure I'm not alone in looking forward to the GSM monopoly being broken shortly as it's all good for customers!

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  Reply # 171766 17-Oct-2008 10:56
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JoeBloggs: Unfortunately, as time has shown, when one company lowers price, the other tends to match in some way. This brings revenue down for both companies which is why they tend to resist price competition (just the basics of a duopoly).


But dropping prices does not always equal lower revenue. Infact lowering prices if done right will easily increase both sales and overall profit $, albiet with a reduced gross profit %. Mobile pricing isn't a cost plus pricing model, the actual costs of providing the service are substancially lower than the cost an average customer pays for the service. This gives plenty of space to move and the potentially to significantly upsell customers by offering them significant value for money compared to their existing offering. Look for example what the $49 cap did in Australia - it revolutionised both Vodafone and the entire mobile market.

The trick is to make people feel like they are receiving value for money. You do this by driving customer loyalty, making people feel good about a brand and not annoying your existing customers. The cost of acquiring a new customer is far greater than keeping an existing one happy, something that companies seem oblivious to.

Anyway this is getting a bit OT now..:-)

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  Reply # 171770 17-Oct-2008 11:19
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coffeebaron: Even remember the early days at a tech expo, where one of Vodafone' PR went head to head drag racing (mobile data) with Telecom. That's one race Telecom did win :)

In the Telecom camp I believe it was Jama (a user here) who was doing that...)




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