New wrinkle on selling an effectively stolen phone

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'That VDSL Cat'
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#1913549 5-Dec-2017 20:55

to be very clear, taking my official hat off to comment on this.

The idea of locking a phone through the stolen phone process is IMO; going around the harder option - Debt collection.

Best of luck OP, sounds like a pretty sh!tty situation...

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sbiddle

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#1913567 5-Dec-2017 21:32

graemeh:

It is also worth investigating if you can put the Telco as a party in the disputes tribunal proceedings. If the phone wasn't stolen and they haven't registered it as security on the PPSR then you may find that they are not legally able to block the phone if they haven't registered a security interest over it.

This is actually a really good point and something worth investigating. If Spark haven't done this then it would clearly be a wakeup call for them.

kornflake

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#1913581 5-Dec-2017 21:53

Have to laugh, when working for a competing telco, I clearly identified a fraudster to Sparks (Telecom at the time) fraud team, however they did not seem to care! Talking with the local CAB team they are seeing an increase of phones been fraudently purchased on interest free payment without the actual account holders knowledge, until they receive an over due notice for a phone they do not have procession of, surprising how many people don’t actually read their invoice!, anyway I always hoped Spark would up their game, seems not.

loceff13

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#1913600 5-Dec-2017 22:27

hio77:

to be very clear, taking my official hat off to comment on this.

The idea of locking a phone through the stolen phone process is IMO; going around the harder option - Debt collection.

Best of luck OP, sounds like a pretty sh!tty situation...

I as a customer would prefer blocking to happen rather than my provider passing on insane 'late fees' which they justify to cover the costs of their debt collection.

hio77

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#1913640 6-Dec-2017 00:32

loceff13:

I as a customer would prefer blocking to happen rather than my provider passing on insane 'late fees' which they justify to cover the costs of their debt collection.

I'm assuming the black and white case of, the purchase of the device originally was 100% above board and simply the buyer stopped paying their bill.

Any shady, X did Y stuff was not being commented on as that is a insane can of worms, which i agree is many of these cases passing on charges would not be fair.

Worth pointing out too, the OP has notably what i'd assume is trying to stay Telco irrelevant by clearly not naming what provider is involved.

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Starscream122

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#1913673 6-Dec-2017 07:46

kornflake: Have to laugh, when working for a competing telco, I clearly identified a fraudster to Sparks (Telecom at the time) fraud team, however they did not seem to care! Talking with the local CAB team they are seeing an increase of phones been fraudently purchased on interest free payment without the actual account holders knowledge, until they receive an over due notice for a phone they do not have procession of, surprising how many people don’t actually read their invoice!, anyway I always hoped Spark would up their game, seems not.

And how can someone ring another persons mobile provider and get a phone ordered interest free without their knowledge? First you would need to know what provider they are with and if they are in fact on a plan and not prepay then you would need to know their 4 digit pin or date of birth full name and address...

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tripp

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#1913677 6-Dec-2017 07:54

The correct way this should be done is that the debt is on the person not the phone. If a user does not pay then you block the sim (not the phone) and then start your debt recovery actions. It is not called a "loan" it is called interest free payments for xx months. As soon as the paperwork is signed then the phone should become the property of the user. If the user does not pay you go after them for the amount.

DeepBlueSky

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#1913718 6-Dec-2017 09:30

UPDATE:

Dispute lodged with TradeMe

The guy I bought the phone off last evening called me, he says he has contacted the original buyer and bill is being paid. When / if this happens, I'll need to check with the Telco that its been paid in full.

I'll let you know the result.

Reading the posts though I thing I have to agree actions on bad debt need to be taken up with the person who signed the contract. Putting a lock on a phone no longer in their possession impacts on other people not involved with that transaction. As it stands it looks like the perfect scam if a person can generate false identities they could buy several phones sell them and a couple of months later the Telco Time bombs go off impacting multiple people.

We need a law change or Telco agreement change to stop this from happening.

networkn

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#1913719 6-Dec-2017 09:35

DeepBlueSky:

UPDATE:

Dispute lodged with TradeMe

The guy I bought the phone off last evening called me, he says he has contacted the original buyer and bill is being paid. When / if this happens, I'll need to check with the Telco that its been paid in full.

I'll let you know the result.

Reading the posts though I thing I have to agree actions on bad debt need to be taken up with the person who signed the contract. Putting a lock on a phone no longer in their possession impacts on other people not involved with that transaction. As it stands it looks like the perfect scam if a person can generate false identities they could buy several phones sell them and a couple of months later the Telco Time bombs go off impacting multiple people.

We need a law change or Telco agreement change to stop this from happening.

Whether it's right or wrong, either way, the debt has been paid which is to be fair, what the telco wanted. I don't see them feeling very motivated for a change in policy if the one they have is working.

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#1913756 6-Dec-2017 10:20

DeepBlueSky:
UPDATE:

Dispute lodged with TradeMe

The guy I bought the phone off last evening called me, he says he has contacted the original buyer and bill is being paid. When / if this happens, I'll need to check with the Telco that its been paid in full.

I'll let you know the result.

Reading the posts though I thing I have to agree actions on bad debt need to be taken up with the person who signed the contract. Putting a lock on a phone no longer in their possession impacts on other people not involved with that transaction. As it stands it looks like the perfect scam if a person can generate false identities they could buy several phones sell them and a couple of months later the Telco Time bombs go off impacting multiple people.

We need a law change or Telco agreement change to stop this from happening.

Grats to you for able to sort this out. I don't think I have the patience to do this. I have been through similar situation a couple of years ago. It was a note 5 - daughter bought the phone on interest free deal - gave it to mom because she went back to iphone. Mom sold it to me and it got blocked two months later. Complained to the seller (mom), she refund me the whole sum and very apologetic about it. From that day on - I will NOT buy a near new/new phone from trademe anymore.

DeepBlueSky

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#1913805 6-Dec-2017 11:27

UPDATE:

I received a call from the Telco as I lodged a complaint with the TDR - Telecommunication Dispute Resolution. I had a good discussion but the current Telco policy is that they lock the phone when money is owing with the person who signed the contract, she was supportive of the situation but in the end could not deviate from official policy.

She will bring up the concerns we have noted in this forum with their Fraud team actually gave them this Topic to show peoples feelings on the need for improvement here. I'm not hopeful but there is a chance this will help other people and that was the reason I started this topic.

I asked her to check the IMEI to see if the block had been removed its still active as of now.

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StarBlazer

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#1913831 6-Dec-2017 12:50

INAL!

I disagree with the whole "civil action" part. At the end of the day, someone in this chain of purchasers has obtained monies by deception by selling a phone to which they do not have a legal entitlement - presumption here is that until paid off the title to the goods is retained by the company providing the phone or finance. I believe this is called fraud and I also believe this is a criminal matter. Your issue here is to prove intent by the person who sold the phone to you.

Imagine if this was a car bought on finance, sold, sold and sold again, but the original purchaser stopped paying the loan. The debt recovery company will repossess the car regardless of whoever is the current registered owner because at the end of the day either the car dealer or debt recovery company retain title and ownership.

I hope that the agreement with the "original buyer" in your case is that the phone is paid off in full - I would expect to see a receipt for that as in two months time you may be having this problem again.

I really, really hope that this is concluded for you in a satisfactory way.

Procrastination eventually pays off.

hio77

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#1913877 6-Dec-2017 15:07

hio77:

loceff13:

I as a customer would prefer blocking to happen rather than my provider passing on insane 'late fees' which they justify to cover the costs of their debt collection.

Any shady, X did Y stuff was not being commented on as that is a insane can of worms, which i agree is many of these cases passing on charges would not be fair.

Just to follow up on this one, I've checked in with the legal folk around here (So putting my Official spark hat back on)

Confirmed that Spark would never block a phones IEMI due to lack of payment for a device.

IEMI blocking process has some very clear legal process lines where things are and not allowed.

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wellygary

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#1913881 6-Dec-2017 15:10

hio77:

Just to follow up on this one, I've checked in with the legal folk around here (So putting my Official spark hat back on)

Confirmed that Spark would never block a phones IEMI due to lack of payment for a device.

IEMI blocking process has some very clear legal process lines where things are and not allowed.

OK, so that just opened a HUGE can of worms in regard to how the phone got blocked in the first place.....

hio77

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#1913882 6-Dec-2017 15:17

wellygary:

OK, so that just opened a HUGE can of worms in regard to how the phone got blocked in the first place.....

Potentially somewhere in the story, there was another party involved that has reported the phone? who knows.

OP has indicated the telco's fruad department is on the case, so if it was ran anywhere on that providers end i'd expect it to be very well documented.

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