New wrinkle on selling an effectively stolen phone

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gzt

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#1915474 8-Dec-2017 22:09

DeepBlueSky: I'm holding off pushing the button on the Police / Trademe for a a couple of days to give the people who sold me the phone time to resolve it.

Bad move. This could go on for a while. Next up the bottom line is you may be in possession of stolen property.

gzt

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#1915477 8-Dec-2017 22:21

More specifically, the non-payment is fact. Fraud requires evidence. The police are in the best position to determine if fraud has occured and act accordingly. That does not get your money back and you have another process for that.

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#1915531 9-Dec-2017 07:40

@gzt: More specifically, the non-payment is fact. Fraud requires evidence. The police are in the best position to determine if fraud has occured and act accordingly. That does not get your money back and you have another process for that.

he did go to the police and trademe

richms

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#1915533 9-Dec-2017 07:53

Comparing to cars getting repo'ed is crazy, as cars and other things that are security that can be repoed are on the register (PPSR from memory) - this is selling something and then effectively bricking it because they sold it to someone with no money. Should be completely illegal for the telco to do that IMO.

If the phone is security in the transaction, then register it as such. If the phone was obtained by fraud, then use the fact that they know exactly who us using it and the precise location of it to get the user of it done for having the proceeds of fraud.

But bricking it and saying "oh well" is just being lazy and screwing over people who bought it in good faith.

Richard rich.ms

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#1921202 18-Dec-2017 11:46

Just received:

The New Zealand Telecommunications Forum (TCF) and NZ Police are warning consumers about the dangers of buying second-hand phones online this summer.

“Every year, around Christmas time, we see a lot of second-hand mobile phones flood onto the market, as people get given new devices for Christmas” says Geoff Thorn CEO of the TCF. “The majority of these devices are from genuine sellers, but it’s also the time of year our members see an increase in the number of fraudulent devices coming on to the market.”

The TCF recently ran a fun, informative quiz for consumers called Test Your Telco IQ. Over 35% of consumers who have completed the quiz believe that buying a second-hand cell phone online, from sites such as Facebook, is safe. “This is simply not true” says TCF CEO Geoff Thorn. “Even if you check the serial number to make sure it’s not listed as stolen, there are no guarantees.”

“Purchasing second-hand goods online always comes with an element of risk,” says Detective Senior Sergeant Bridget Doell from Auckland City Police.

“We know that it’s common for criminals to sell items - that have been stolen through thefts and burglaries - online through community pages on websites such as Facebook. If someone is selling a new iPhone for a significantly cheaper price online, then clearly that is going to look suspicious. Remember the old adage, if it’s too good to be true, then it probably is.”

“Police would also like to remind the community that it is an offence to knowingly receive stolen goods and we encourage anyone who suspects that items listed for sale may be stolen goods, to report the matter to Police by contacting your nearest police station,” says Detective Senior Sergeant Doell.

The telco industry works together to prevent criminals profiting from phone theft, by blacklisting devices that have been lost, stolen or obtained through fraud. Blacklisted devices will no longer work on any New Zealand mobile network.

The TCF runs a free look-up service, so consumers can check the serial number of a handset to see whether it has been blacklisted, before purchasing it. While over 90% of lost or stolen phones are blacklisted almost immediately, and listed as such on the lookup service; phones obtained and sold through fraudulent activities can be blacklisted at a later date, so the service is not fool proof.

In addition to the risks of fraud when buying second-hand mobiles, all handsets purchased from a telco will be tested to provide a great experience on the NZ mobile networks, while second-hand or parallel imported handsets are not guaranteed to perform as well, and consumer rights such as warranties and faulty product protection are harder to enforce in private sales.

“Over 35% of the population willing to buy a second-hand phone online, from a complete stranger, is of concern” says Mr Thorn. “We’d like to ensure New Zealand consumers are aware of the risks involved with private trading of mobile devices, and consider those factors before deciding where to purchase their next handset.”

To check the status of any mobile on the New Zealand network, visit: Mindyourmobile.co.nz

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KrazyKid

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#1921249 18-Dec-2017 13:10

“Police would also like to remind the community that it is an offence to knowingly receive stolen goods and we encourage anyone who suspects that items listed for sale may be stolen goods, to report the matter to Police by contacting your nearest police station,” says Detective Senior Sergeant Doell.

Hands up who expects the police to care/do anything about it if you report the fact your new phone is blacklisted and won't work.

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mudguard

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#1921508 18-Dec-2017 20:53

richms:
Comparing to cars getting repo'ed is crazy, as cars and other things that are security that can be repoed are on the register (PPSR from memory) - this is selling something and then effectively bricking it because they sold it to someone with no money. Should be completely illegal for the telco to do that IMO.

If the phone is security in the transaction, then register it as such. If the phone was obtained by fraud, then use the fact that they know exactly who us using it and the precise location of it to get the user of it done for having the proceeds of fraud.

But bricking it and saying "oh well" is just being lazy and screwing over people who bought it in good faith.

You aren't going to register security over low priced items. I have no issue with them bricking the phone if they don't receive payment, they've extended credit to someone, who hasn't paid, they will most likely write the amount off after lodging it with Baycorp.

Unfortunately for the OP, they've bought essentially stolen goods. Repossession, fraud investigation etc is expensive, cheaper to brick it, pay Baycorp to list it and be done with it.

DeepBlueSky

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#1922175 19-Dec-2017 20:53

*UPDATE* the guy I bought the phone off repaid me in full tonight so my part of this puzzle is solved and I'm a happy camper for Christmas.

The cause of the scam is still not is not though, buy a new phone with fake details sell it on you can check online the phone will be clean and for a couple of months all is good until the Telco Time Bomb goes off and the phone is Blacklisted and your stuffed.

Talking with a a guy at Trade me they would like the Telco's to publish phone IMEI's that have money owing, if this existed then Trademe could require *NEW'ish* phone listings to include the IMEI this would obviously not be shown to the public but would help identify problem phones and sites like https://www.tcf.org.nz/ would also be able to notify a person buying a phone about money owing.

This needs to be looked at, as it stands I won't be the last person caught up in this scam.

hio77

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#1922177 19-Dec-2017 21:00

Awesome resolution for you.

on principle i'd agree, i do need to make it clear though telcos can block a phone for fraud, not for lack of payment - eg likely owing the whole device + plan purchased under.

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sbiddle

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#1922182 19-Dec-2017 21:32

Have you contacted the TCF for comment about this? I'd be really interested to know there views considering the guidelines (which are voluntary) for the IMEI blocking scheme very clearly say -

Blacklisting cannot be used to withhold service or resolve commercial disputes (including bad debt scenarios).

What defines "fraud" vs a "bad debt" scenario?

Starscream122

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#1922185 19-Dec-2017 21:41

DeepBlueSky: *UPDATE* the guy I bought the phone off repaid me in full tonight so my part of this puzzle is solved and I'm a happy camper for Christmas.

The cause of the scam is still not is not though, buy a new phone with fake details sell it on you can check online the phone will be clean and for a couple of months all is good until the Telco Time Bomb goes off and the phone is Blacklisted and your stuffed.

Talking with a a guy at Trade me they would like the Telco's to publish phone IMEI's that have money owing, if this existed then Trademe could require *NEW'ish* phone listings to include the IMEI this would obviously not be shown to the public but would help identify problem phones and sites like https://www.tcf.org.nz/ would also be able to notify a person buying a phone about money owing.

This needs to be looked at, as it stands I won't be the last person caught up in this scam.

have you returned the phone to him?

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DeepBlueSky

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#1922221 19-Dec-2017 23:35

Yes I returned the phone.

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