Another reason to ban 5G?

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Wilko

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#293036 23-Dec-2021 11:23

https://www.zdnet.com/article/boeing-and-airbus-join-faa-in-calling-for-5g-rollout-delays-over-interference-fears/

Could this be another reason for delaying 5G? I am sure that the Anti 5G crowd will jump at it

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#2837282 23-Dec-2021 11:30

Sounds like the "please turn off all mobile devices" issue of the 90s?

Or maybe the frequencies of the 5g is too close to the frequencies on the instruments

Handsomedan

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#2837283 23-Dec-2021 11:34

It'll be the 5G getting into the systems and infecting them with the Covids.

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#2837289 23-Dec-2021 11:46

Batman: Sounds like the "please turn off all mobile devices" issue of the 90s?

Or maybe the frequencies of the 5g is too close to the frequencies on the instruments

It's not the mobile devices, well not just them It's the towers and their location close to the approach path of an airport. The 5G signals interfere with the radar altimeters which are an important system used when carrying out instrument approaches in poor weather.

It's my understanding the 5G frequencies in the US, where this issue has been flagged, are different to the 5G frequencies we use. This isn't a problem here.

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#2837291 23-Dec-2021 11:48

We use C band which is what is being discussed.

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#2837293 23-Dec-2021 11:56

Spyware:

We use C band which is what is being discussed.

@spyware, you know the tin foil brigade now will kick off!

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clinty

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#2837300 23-Dec-2021 12:21

A good 20 min podcast on why this is an issue in the US

https://play.acast.com/s/know-a-little-more/about-5g-interference-in-airplane-systems

If we use the same frequencies here, it may be an issue, but really can depend on the location of the cell tower

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ajw

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#2840760 31-Dec-2021 10:51

Interested to see what happens here. There is a 200MHZ guard band between the mobile operators and airport altimeter equipment at airports. Verizon wireless, AT&T and Tmobile have paid over $US85 billion for this c band spectrum and said they are switching it on 5 January 2022 no matter what. C band is being used in over 40 countries for 5G with no interference to airport altimeters.

pdh

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#2840789 31-Dec-2021 12:43

>...switching it on 5 January 2022 no matter what.
>C band is being used in over 40 countries for 5G with no interference to airport altimeters.

They may be turning it off smartly, after a couple of Airbuses fly into buildings...
or airlines just stop flying in bad weather.

Airbus & Boeing have done simulations - and say there is a problem.

The Telcos have done simulations and say there isn't.

It's non-trivial to mock this up in a lab.
But I worry that Telcos do work in a somewhat more forgiving-of-errors environment.
Packet loss in aviation is usually tragic.

By the way, there are no 'airport altimeters' - the airports have known their altitudes for some years.
The altimeters in question are on any big airliners equipped for landing in bad weather.

ajw

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#2840792 31-Dec-2021 12:47

pdh:

>...switching it on 5 January 2022 no matter what.
>C band is being used in over 40 countries for 5G with no interference to airport altimeters.

They may be turning it off smartly, after a couple of Airbuses fly into buildings...
or airlines just stop flying in bad weather.

Airbus & Boeing have done simulations - and say there is a problem.

The Telcos have done simulations and say there isn't.

It's non-trivial to mock this up in a lab.
But I worry that Telcos do work in a somewhat more forgiving-of-errors environment.
Packet loss in aviation is usually tragic.

By the way, there are no 'airport altimeters' - the airports have known their altitudes for some years.
The altimeters in question are on any big airliners equipped for landing in bad weather.

Why no problem in other countries with less guard band. Just shows just how incompetent the FAA is. They had known about the C Band auction for years. If the C band switch on is delayed further the wireless companies should be compensated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6KHzMuWry0&t=342s

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#2840834 31-Dec-2021 15:53

ajw:

pdh:

>...switching it on 5 January 2022 no matter what.
>C band is being used in over 40 countries for 5G with no interference to airport altimeters.

They may be turning it off smartly, after a couple of Airbuses fly into buildings...
or airlines just stop flying in bad weather.

Airbus & Boeing have done simulations - and say there is a problem.

The Telcos have done simulations and say there isn't.

It's non-trivial to mock this up in a lab.
But I worry that Telcos do work in a somewhat more forgiving-of-errors environment.
Packet loss in aviation is usually tragic.

By the way, there are no 'airport altimeters' - the airports have known their altitudes for some years.
The altimeters in question are on any big airliners equipped for landing in bad weather.

Why no problem in other countries with less guard band. Just shows just how incompetent the FAA is. They had known about the C Band auction for years. If the C band switch on is delayed further the wireless companies should be compensated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6KHzMuWry0&t=342s

The FAA don't dish out the frequencies. Isn't that the domain of the FCC or similar. Shouldn't it be them in the gun.

Radar altimeters are not just fitted to big airliners. This won't cause aircraft to crash but it might mean passengers don't get to land where they wanted to due the airlines having to operate to higher weather minimums and their aircraft having to divert more often.

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ajw

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#2840889 31-Dec-2021 16:13

@Techofreak

The FAA were fully consulted before this spectrum went up for auction. The FAA has not presented one shred of evidence to prove that C band 5G will interfere with Altimeter equipment especially as the same equipment is used in 40 other countries.

Seems a gigantic circus to me two companies pay over $85 billion for radio spectrum and are then told they can't use it I say again what a gigantic circus.

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#2840895 31-Dec-2021 16:25

Technofreak:

Radar altimeters are not just fitted to big airliners. This won't cause aircraft to crash but it might mean passengers don't get to land where they wanted to due the airlines having to operate to higher weather minimums and their aircraft having to divert more often.

Radar Altimeters are not a primary instrument for the approach. Approaches are flown on the pressure altimeter which is geared to MSL (Airfield QNH) and all check heights are based on the threshold elevation. So for example if an airfield is at 510 feet elevation a 200 ft Decision Height (ie the height above the airfield where you commit) would equate to a Decision Altitude of 710 ft and that is what would appear on the Terminal Approach Procedures.

ILS of the various categories from Cat 1 all the way to Cat 111c are what get you on the ground in bad weather with the weather minima based on the Category of ILS and the training of the crews.

RadAlts would give erroneous information on the approach as they measure your instantaneous height above the terrain which if you envisage airports on a plateau or in a valley would have significantly different RadAlt heights to Baro Altitude minus threshold elevation throughout the approach. In built up areas it can be even worse with frequent unlocks due to buildings.

ajw

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#2840898 31-Dec-2021 16:32

cshwone:

Technofreak:

Radar altimeters are not just fitted to big airliners. This won't cause aircraft to crash but it might mean passengers don't get to land where they wanted to due the airlines having to operate to higher weather minimums and their aircraft having to divert more often.

Radar Altimeters are not a primary instrument for the approach. Approaches are flown on the pressure altimeter which is geared to MSL (Airfield QNH) and all check heights are based on the threshold elevation. So for example if an airfield is at 510 feet elevation a 200 ft Decision Height (ie the height above the airfield where you commit) would equate to a Decision Altitude of 710 ft and that is what would appear on the Terminal Approach Procedures.

ILS of the various categories from Cat 1 all the way to Cat 111c are what get you on the ground in bad weather with the weather minima based on the Category of ILS and the training of the crews.

RadAlts would give erroneous information on the approach as they measure your instantaneous height above the terrain which if you envisage airports on a plateau or in a valley would have significantly different RadAlt heights to Baro Altitude minus threshold elevation throughout the approach. In built up areas it can be even worse with frequent unlocks due to buildings.

Same C band 5G spectrum is currently being used in over 40 countries and only a 100MHZ guardband and the US has a 200MHZ guardband. Same brands of aircraft and equipment currently being used in those 40 countries with no problems.

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#2841023 31-Dec-2021 21:49

cshwone:

Technofreak:

Radar altimeters are not just fitted to big airliners. This won't cause aircraft to crash but it might mean passengers don't get to land where they wanted to due the airlines having to operate to higher weather minimums and their aircraft having to divert more often.

Radar Altimeters are not a primary instrument for the approach. Approaches are flown on the pressure altimeter which is geared to MSL (Airfield QNH) and all check heights are based on the threshold elevation. So for example if an airfield is at 510 feet elevation a 200 ft Decision Height (ie the height above the airfield where you commit) would equate to a Decision Altitude of 710 ft and that is what would appear on the Terminal Approach Procedures.

ILS of the various categories from Cat 1 all the way to Cat 111c are what get you on the ground in bad weather with the weather minima based on the Category of ILS and the training of the crews.

RadAlts would give erroneous information on the approach as they measure your instantaneous height above the terrain which if you envisage airports on a plateau or in a valley would have significantly different RadAlt heights to Baro Altitude minus threshold elevation throughout the approach. In built up areas it can be even worse with frequent unlocks due to buildings.

I use a radar altimeter and fly instrument approaches every day. I know how they work. Correct they are not a primary instrument for flying an instrument approach but they are part of the EGPWS system and some minimas can be predicated by the use of the Radar altimeter.

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#2841025 31-Dec-2021 21:52

200Mhz guard band is massive! Seems a bit OTT

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