Unacceptable Service Levels with 2Talk

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#517524 6-Sep-2011 14:12

sbiddle: My dealings with both VoIP and PSTN ports puts the figure at around 60 minutes on average between the number moving from the losing service provider to the gaining service provider. I obviously can't comment on the timeframes other providers may have. Mobile ports are also very efficient and take around an hour.

I was impressed with 2Deg porting from VF. I don't understand why it takes so long for 2Talk. But I don't think we lost service very long and I could have done more to minimize down time if I'd cared.

As I only move my numbers once every 3 years, does a couple of hours of down time really matter?

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thekiwi

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#517538 6-Sep-2011 14:40

Same experience.

2Talk informed us that porting would occur on the morning of 5th Sept (approx 5 working days after the request was made). Up until 10:00am we still had dialtone ... a little while later none. Quickly repatched to get the phones working and almost straight away we wer on VOIP. WAs really impressed with the minimal downtime.

rscole86

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#517542 6-Sep-2011 14:46

Emergency services should always verify all address details, even if CLI data is provided. They will use cross streets/landmarks/buildings etc etc.
Ideally the CLI data should be kept up-to-day (and correct!!) so if there is a non-speech call they will have a place to start their enquiries/checks. Also, if someone else receives a call and notifies emergency services of it, they can do a reverse look-up to find the location.
Obviously they will be able to make direct enquiries with providers for billing address/physical address' but that can take time, and VOIP is an obvious problem at this stage.

networkn

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#517544 6-Sep-2011 14:48

sbiddle:
DonGould:
sbiddle: Porting is a 60 minute process from the losing service provider to the gaining service provider. Why go to all the effort in doing this, especially since the inbound number can't be called anyway during the porting process?

I think the question comes about because porting isn't a 60 minute process.

My dealings with both VoIP and PSTN ports puts the figure at around 60 minutes on average between the number moving from the losing service provider to the gaining service provider. I obviously can't comment on the timeframes other providers may have. Mobile ports are also very efficient and take around an hour.

When you say "other" providers, are you tied to one particular provider? I am not exactly sure what it is you do? "VOIP guy" seems too vague :)

maverick

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#517692 6-Sep-2011 18:12

DonGould:
Beccara: We dont allow it either but 111 is a closed system, There is no visible way for VOIP providers to update 111 location information and we've tried. We see it as a big issue but can't gain any traction on it

Yes I got the impression that it's a boys club to keep some features in the existing providers domains.

In my view, 111 provide a service. If they want me to provide location details of my ATAs then I'll be happy to help out, but the 111 operators deal with the problem my just asking where you are.

I get the impression that 111 don't trust CallerID any more anyway.

I agree with Mav that we do need to follow some standards as best we can and not get to carried away with cheap v's quality.

However, I live in a disaster zone currently and I can tell you there are much bigger fish to fry than 111 and addresses.

I'm more interested in seeing SMS messages get delivery notification turned back on.

As for Indian call centers. Well that's an issue for the Indian government to address. Currently I hear an Indian accent on the phone and I just play along (if I'm bored) or just hand up.

I agree with Mav that the integrity of our networks is failing. Is this going to result in people dealing with locals more and more? - people who they can meet just by dropping into their local office.

Don, this is not really a old boys club, what happens when they dial 111 and can't speak , if you talk to the emergency services operators you will find this is quite common, remember this service is treated by the government as critical, these guys get held accountable and generally hung drawn and quartered by the media and the public for any slip ups, yet you would be happy to compromise this service ?.

As a service provider we take 111 incredibly seriously and we believe it is a moral and social obligation as well , seeing any form of CLI spoofing that could compromise this essential service as well as all the crap phone scams going on is as I said before incredibly irresponsible and IMHO any providers allowing this should be taken to taken to task over it.

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sbiddle

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#517705 6-Sep-2011 18:50

networkn: I am not exactly sure what it is you do? "VOIP guy" seems too vague :)

I've just your average former supermarket trolley boy.

maverick

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#517706 6-Sep-2011 18:54

sbiddle:
networkn: I am not exactly sure what it is you do? "VOIP guy" seems too vague :)

I've just your average former supermarket trolley boy.

VoIP cleanup in aisle 3 please Mr Biddle :)

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DonGould

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#517740 6-Sep-2011 20:35

maverick: remember this service is treated by the government as critical,

The suggestion that the government takes this issue seriously is just silly. After 4 years it's still a problem.

Qudos to your view, but come on, let's get real here. The government and 111 service don't care about addresses in the system at all.

Their position on the issue is very clear now.

If, as a consumer, you value having a provider with address information tied to 111 then you can have that. However it is a consumer choice and one that comes at a cost.

My new mobile phone has GPS built in. I'm not aware of even discussion to integrate that information to 111 services.

As for spoofing numbers... that's an issue they care even less about. The other night I got a call from +64 1234567890

I can block calls without CallerID. I can, and do have my email systems set up to validate every message sender is not in a known rogue sender list - RLB.

What do I do about the number above?

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#517781 6-Sep-2011 21:31

DonGould:
maverick: remember this service is treated by the government as critical,

The suggestion that the government takes this issue seriously is just silly. After 4 years it's still a problem.

Qudos to your view, but come on, let's get real here. The government and 111 service don't care about addresses in the system at all.

Their position on the issue is very clear now.

If, as a consumer, you value having a provider with address information tied to 111 then you can have that. However it is a consumer choice and one that comes at a cost.

My new mobile phone has GPS built in. I'm not aware of even discussion to integrate that information to 111 services.

As for spoofing numbers... that's an issue they care even less about. The other night I got a call from +64 1234567890

I can block calls without CallerID. I can, and do have my email systems set up to validate every message sender is not in a known rogue sender list - RLB.

What do I do about the number above?

The only reason you're getting spoofed CID's is because certain operators are allowing this to happen. Right now the VoIP interconnect market is like mail relay in the late 90's and we saw what happened with spam.

You should NOT be getting calls with fake CID, the only reason you are is because there is at least one player in NZ freely allowing allowing this to occur and it's certainly no secret in the industry.

CFH draft agreements mandate that all voice services have to be compliant with the TCF emergency calling guidelines.

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#517799 6-Sep-2011 21:51

DonGould:
maverick: remember this service is treated by the government as critical,

The suggestion that the government takes this issue seriously is just silly. After 4 years it's still a problem.

Qudos to your view, but come on, let's get real here. The government and 111 service don't care about addresses in the system at all.

Their position on the issue is very clear now.

If, as a consumer, you value having a provider with address information tied to 111 then you can have that. However it is a consumer choice and one that comes at a cost.

My new mobile phone has GPS built in. I'm not aware of even discussion to integrate that information to 111 services.

As for spoofing numbers... that's an issue they care even less about. The other night I got a call from +64 1234567890

I can block calls without CallerID. I can, and do have my email systems set up to validate every message sender is not in a known rogue sender list - RLB.

What do I do about the number above?

Just because 'you' are not in the know, does not mean the Government and emergency service providers do not care. Far from it. However, like all things government, things move slowly, especially when those who sign the authorisation forms and hold the purse strings may not understand the importance/technical aspects.

You need to be careful about using the term '111' service. What do you mean by that? The telecom operator who transfers you to Police/Fire/Ambulance, or do you mean the emergency service provider themselves?
Like I said before, CLI data is only one aspect to getting an address, there are other tools to gaining address'. There is a reason why police ask everyone for their name/address/phone number, it is there to help when CLI data does not exist or is wrong.

Why don't you look at the deaf community as another group who need CLI data, but some of them will fax or TTY to Police. Where does the CLI data come from them, and is it guaranteed to be accurate? Not necessarily. The Police along with Deaf Aotearoa introduced the 111 Deaf Text service, which allows for texting to Police your emergency and requirements. This is a world first and works well. It also has the ability to 'track' cellphones via GPS, however this is not implemented at this stage.

The government did something there that was a 'world first', and will make a big difference to a lot of people, probably more than address details for CLI data from VOIP providers. It took years for the Deaf Community to have such a service, do not expect a solution to CLI address data around the corner.

Finally, there are several services, eg NZRelay, who can make calls on the behalf of someone else, even via PC chat. There is no valid CLI data with those calls, and my understand is that they do not have a legal obligation to record or provide the details of the person using their service to emergency services.

techmeister

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Ultimate Geek

#517803 6-Sep-2011 21:52

I would just like to point out that with 2talk if you want to use a non 2talk number as your caller ID you must first verify the number, it is not case of put any caller ID you want.

I would also like to say that our local Telecom PSTN exchange has no caller ID at all so can't block calls or anything, in fact in the last Indian scam, you know where they pretended to be from Microsoft and they suck people into buying their antivirus software, without exception all of my customers that got caught up in it were on the Telecom PSTN phone lines no caller ID needed.
As for the 111 services I know nothing about it so can't comment other than if a provider decides to not officially support the 111 services and clearly states that their T&C then that is ok (not cowboys) you have the choice.
Doing cool things with VOIP is the whole point as long it is done responsibly and reliably.

DonGould

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#517811 6-Sep-2011 22:02

Thanks Steve, that's interesting stuff.

Spoofing is quite interesting as a government issue. Most government agencies block caller id when they make calls.

I find it amusing when they call you up, then request that you answer questions to 'verify yourself'.

As for CFH... now that is funny. 'draft', 'guidelines' and 4 year.

It's kinda typical stuff in this game by my very limited observation, and I'm sure will require someones kid to die before it really gets some decent attention and just fixed.

Sam Boulding - there's a young 10 year olds name I'll never forget. He was the kid who had to die in Australia before Telstra took providing phone lines to the parents of asthma sufferers seriously. Almost over night the company started providing satellite phones for customers in rural areas with faults on their fixed line service. They set up a database to record if homes had people in them that needed phones for medical reasons and did stuff to make sure that the problems that caused Sam's mum to not be able to use her two land lines and mobile phone not to work (and prevent her calling for help) stopped happening.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you and Mav are wrong, no, I support you both on these issues. But I'm anything but convinced that the government gives two hoots about these issues.

The 111 address stuff is just a joke! I have spent a reasonable amount of time looking into it all because I have a child under 5 with medial issues in my house and live in an area with high crime.

Seems to me that the government are more concerned about someone scamming the information than they are about simply not having the information.

Telecom control the 111 system as I understand it. The fact that I can't just go into a local telecom store, present my drivers license and give them an address for my phone numbers is just a disgrace.

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networkn

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#517813 6-Sep-2011 22:07

Guys, aren't we getting a little off topic?

sbiddle

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#517816 6-Sep-2011 22:11

DonGould: Telecom control the 111 system as I understand it. The fact that I can't just go into a local telecom store, present my drivers license and give them an address for my phone numbers is just a disgrace.

Telecom aren't your telco - if you are with Telecom they already have your address details.

The 111 system is run by Telecom but 111 is only a number - your call is answered by a 111 operator (who is supplied by Telecom) and your call is then then conencted to Fire/Police or Ambulance comcen. It is the Police/Fire or Ambulance call taker who then has to perform a lookup of the CLI/ANI details and associated address details if they require them, these people are not the 111 service and are not employed by Telecom. They merely have access to a database or emergency contact numbers for various telco's to get these details if it's a case of geographic data for mobile.

The TCF created a 111 emergency services calling guide to comply with government expectations. There is no need to reinvent the wheel because it's already been invented. If there are telco's out there who aren't approaching customers for their details and keeping these up to take using the tools that are in place then they should be the ones being asked questions, not Telecom.

DonGould

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#517824 6-Sep-2011 22:20

rscole86: Just because 'you' are not in the know, does not mean the Government and emergency service providers do not care.

Sure it does. If they 'cared' then I would be in the know as to how to get my address linked to my phone number. It's just that simple.

If they cared then it would be so simple to do that I'll I'd have to do is post a random comment on GZ and half a dozen guys like Mav and SB would just tell me how to get it done.

But the fact is that the government don't give enough of a toss to take the issue seriously enough to push it past the 'draft/guide line' stage in 4 years of discussion.

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