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#3215738 8-Apr-2024 16:41

MikeAqua:

I couldn't personally think of a worse time of year for a public holiday in NZ, than the depths of winter. Good timing for the skiers, perhaps. Maori must have been tough, to be up at dawn in winter in the traditional clothing. It would have been colder back then, too. I feel cold just thinking about it.

It's during the same season as the New Year holidays in the Northern Hemisphere. Northern Hemisphere holidays transplanted to the Southern Hemisphere are all backwards compared to their origin.

Handle9

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#3215739 8-Apr-2024 16:45

MikeAqua:

Waitangi Day, by comparison seems to be focus for division and hostilities. As a non-Maori citizen, I feel the ToW has very little to do with me. NZ didn't become a fully independent nation (from a statutory perspective) until 1947 or 1987 depending on who you ask.

Just because you don't consider it significant to you doesn't make it insignificant to the country and it's heritage. It's an incredibly significant day in the history of New Zealand well worth recognising.

There is division and hostility in New Zealand, eliminating a holiday won't make it go away.

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#3215746 8-Apr-2024 17:03

MikeAqua:

Waitangi Day, by comparison seems to be focus for division and hostilities. As a non-Maori citizen, I feel the ToW has very little to do with me. NZ didn't become a fully independent nation (from a statutory perspective) until 1947 or 1987 depending on who you ask.

i wouldn't call nz fully independent, nz still goes running back to mommy. plus many here still do things only because "thats how its done in the motherland". which i detest.

MikeAqua

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#3216057 9-Apr-2024 11:48

Kyanar:

With the massive caveat that reforms would need to happen to employment law, since annual leave can only be taken with the employer's consent. You would need to introduce amendments to flip the onus onto the employer to justify why an employee cannot take annual leave, and impose sufficient penalties on employers who flout that onus to deter the behaviour, as well as sufficiently resource the Labour inspectorate or whatever it's called to ensure that employers do not retaliate against employees who report them for refusing leave etc etc.

Basically without a wholesale reform of employment laws, I don't see any way that could even work. Even the US doesn't bother trying and just has public holidays - and they wouldn't know what an employee protection was if it flew up and crapped on them!

The employer's agreement to an employee taking annual leave can't be unreasonably withheld. Taking annual holidays » Employment New Zealand

Mike

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#3216058 9-Apr-2024 11:55

tweake:

MikeAqua:

Waitangi Day, by comparison seems to be focus for division and hostilities. As a non-Maori citizen, I feel the ToW has very little to do with me. NZ didn't become a fully independent nation (from a statutory perspective) until 1947 or 1987 depending on who you ask.

i wouldn't call nz fully independent, nz still goes running back to mommy. plus many here still do things only because "thats how its done in the motherland". which i detest.

No other country can pass legislation that applies in NZ. For all practical terms we are fully independent from a statutory perspective as I said. The King can (via the GG) refuse royal assent and dismiss parliament. I see those powers as safeguards rather than a fetter on our independence.

Mike

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#3216059 9-Apr-2024 11:56

MikeAqua:

The employer's agreement to an employee taking annual leave can't be unreasonably withheld. Taking annual holidays » Employment New Zealand

There is still less power held by the employee in this situation, than on public holidays.

Whilst it has some benefits, it would be an administrative nightmare.

I like the idea of public holidays, I think they allow for a collective break if it's wanted, doesn't require any change in employment laws or regulations. Simply allowing a business to be open on a public holiday causes none of those issues.

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#3216064 9-Apr-2024 12:14

tweake:

yes. but add to that when you convert public holidays to annual leave, you loose the 1.5x and day in luie. win for the employer there.

plus people simply don't organize leave so everyone gets together. thats why public holidays are such good family events, you know everyone is off work. so its a bad social effect.

and lastly its worker rights erosion. soon enough even annual leave will be cut back down etc. its a sneaky little tactic.

Most people almost never work public holidays and would not be impacted by the loss of time and half and TIL.

People may not organise time off work for family events but they could. It's a matter of personal choice/priorities. As per an earlier post, the employer can't unreasonably withhold leave. Myself, Mrs Aqua and six others are doing an extended trip to the SW USA later this year. All on annual leave. That was organised with relative ease despite the need to plan around four families, ten kids, seven employers and multiple pets.

How many people in NZ are actually taking advantage of public holiday weekends to stage family get togethers? Is there any data?

Can we actually say it's a net social benefit to have family get togethers - given our DV stats?

So much supposition about how people would like to live their lives.

Mike

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Trade NZ and US shares and funds with Sharesies (affiliate link).

MikeAqua

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#3216066 9-Apr-2024 12:24

Handle9:

Just because you don't consider it significant to you doesn't make it insignificant to the country and it's heritage. It's an incredibly significant day in the history of New Zealand well worth recognising.

There is division and hostility in New Zealand, eliminating a holiday won't make it go away.

I didn't say Waitangi Day wasn't significant to NZ or shouldn't be public holiday, or should be eliminated. I simply said that I personally find it meaningless, that is a true statement.

Mike

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#3216077 9-Apr-2024 12:52

MikeAqua:

How many people in NZ are actually taking advantage of public holiday weekends to stage family get togethers? Is there any data?

Can we actually say it's a net social benefit to have family get togethers - given our DV stats?

So much supposition about how people would like to live their lives.

1) It's not relevant, without the holiday, it's less likely to happen.

2) Yes it absolutely is a net social benefit. DV stats aren't THAT high (they are disgraceful, don't get me wrong, but they still make up a TINY fraction of our total population).

3) No, you can safely make some generalisations without it being a problem. Exceptions are fine, people still benefit from a public holiday, whether they spend it with family, or as was originally proposed, they CAN work if they want to.

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#3216235 9-Apr-2024 15:14

networkn:

1) It's not relevant, without the holiday, it's less likely to happen.

2) Yes it absolutely is a net social benefit. DV stats aren't THAT high (they are disgraceful, don't get me wrong, but they still make up a TINY fraction of our total population).

3) No, you can safely make some generalisations without it being a problem. Exceptions are fine, people still benefit from a public holiday, whether they spend it with family, or as was originally proposed, they CAN work if they want to.

1) So you have no idea then? The government are effectively telling the whole country they cannot engage in many normally legal activities on these days. It's sort of like a mini lockdown. The benefits need to outweigh that for such a high level of interference and control to be justified. The benefits depend on how any people take advantage of these days to hold the 'get togethers' that you imagine are happening.

2) I once heard a criminologist quip that the best way to get murdered as to drink with family members on a holiday weekend ...

3) Lots of people can't work on a public holiday ... because their place of employment isn't operating. I would agree that holidays are beneficial for rest, destressing etc. From that perspective, it doesn't matter when they are. Annual holidays have the advantage of affording large chunks of leave to be taken, which are most beneficial for mental health. Public holidays do not, they are at most ?4 days?

Mike

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#3216256 9-Apr-2024 16:17

MikeAqua:

Most people almost never work public holidays and would not be impacted by the loss of time and half and TIL.

So, screw the retail employees, fast food workers, petrol station attendants, cafe staff, restaurant staff, bar attendants and so on right? They should just "get a better job"?

People may not organise time off work for family events but they could. It's a matter of personal choice/priorities. As per an earlier post, the employer can't unreasonably withhold leave. Myself, Mrs Aqua and six others are doing an extended trip to the SW USA later this year. All on annual leave. That was organised with relative ease despite the need to plan around four families, ten kids, seven employers and multiple pets.

Ok, sure. It works for you. You know who it doesn't work for? All those people who have zero days of annual leave a year, due to them being part time, casual, contract. Under your model they simply have all their holidays stripped from them and get nothing in return - for many of them, not even extra pay or TOIL days.

This whole "scrap all public holidays and give everyone with a job like mine more annual leave days" is very selfish thinking. Sorry, but no.

tweake

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#3216297 9-Apr-2024 17:07

MikeAqua:

Most people almost never work public holidays and would not be impacted by the loss of time and half and TIL.

People may not organise time off work for family events but they could. It's a matter of personal choice/priorities. As per an earlier post, the employer can't unreasonably withhold leave. Myself, Mrs Aqua and six others are doing an extended trip to the SW USA later this year. All on annual leave. That was organised with relative ease despite the need to plan around four families, ten kids, seven employers and multiple pets.

kinda sucks badly for those already working public holidays. thats really nice of you.

many kiwis work in the rural sector where work is seasonal. there is simply no such thing as time off in the season. ask for an extended vacation mid season will be met with "find another job" (as per their contract). thats what you sign on for in the industry. in the real world you "make hay while the sun shines", mother nature is the boss. the only breaks are public holidays and even then many have to work due to animal welfare.

tweake

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#3216299 9-Apr-2024 17:12

MikeAqua:

The employer's agreement to an employee taking annual leave can't be unreasonably withheld. Taking annual holidays » Employment New Zealand

but it can be heavily discouraged. office politics can play a big part. those who take holidays at the wrong time can end up with backlash, not just from employer but other employees.

Kyanar

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#3216303 9-Apr-2024 17:22

MikeAqua:

The employer's agreement to an employee taking annual leave can't be unreasonably withheld. Taking annual holidays » Employment New Zealand

Cool. Except for the fact that the Labour department is poorly resourced, and what's written is basically unenforceable. The power dynamics mean that for the most part if you apply for leave the boss just says "sorry, Bob's already on leave so we need you" and that's the end of that. Sure you could report them to MBIE, but then of course it just means that your position will suddenly "not be required any longer" next budget round. Employers currently barely get in trouble for literally defrauding workers by importing them under false pretenses, taking their passports, then demanding they pay back half their wages as "accommodation costs".

Plus, you know, all the workers who don't get annual leave cause they don't work a 9-5.

tdgeek

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#3216433 10-Apr-2024 07:32

Unsure how the tourist industry would go if stats were replaced by annual leave days. Perhaps too many want to take leave in Summer? Perhaps the tourist season drops away and is spread throughout the year? Operators that have a peak season where they hire extras and ease that back off season might be forced to get used to erratic annual sales?

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