Changing of our flag , Yes or No.

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Networkn
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#1449059 12-Dec-2015 09:50

jamesrt: With respect to the cost of the referendum:

a) Everyone quotes similar sums of money; but these figures are rarely attributed to a reliable source, so how to we know they are valid?
b) People seem to consider this as "lost" money, which "would have been better spent on XXXX".

However, it is reasonable to suppose that most of the money spent on the referendum is being introduced into the NZ economy and circulated anyway; to the benefit of a whole bunch of people. I'm sure a lot of the amounts of money being paid are in the form of wages/salaries for various people (for example, the people who get to count the votes), OR for services in the NZ market (for example, paying for the production and printing of the paperwork; the postage; the advertising, etc). In most cases, that "services" money will go into the pockets of those people providing the service, or employed by the service provider. And a certain percentage will be returned to the Government in the form of tax anyway.

"Wasted" money? Not really.
"Helping the NZ economy"? Probably.
"Keeping honest Kiwi's in work"? Well, in the case of NZ Post; absolutely! What else do they actually deliver to people's houses these days??? :-)

Good points.

networkn

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#1449060 12-Dec-2015 09:50

Geektastic: I'm not a fan of the change at all, but the red, white and blue version of the 'winner' was a nicer option in my view.

I think it is possibly the most fatuous waste of time, money and effort any government ever has committed.

Heh I can think of changes made by the Government lately that I feel are much worse but most were in favour of it, so they did it.

dafman

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#1449068 12-Dec-2015 10:13

tdgeek:
New flag? No. Its an update to the old flag, removing Union Jack, adding NZ fern and black colour to make it a NZ flag not a Commonwealth flag

All it's missing is a Steinlager logo to make it complete.

andrewNZ

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#1449071 12-Dec-2015 10:24

So our national colours will be black and blue...

Disturbingly accurate.

freitasm

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#1449072 12-Dec-2015 10:25

andrewNZ: So our national colours will be black and blue...

Disturbingly accurate.

Nope. There's still another round where we vote if we want to change the current one with this one.

Or did you miss this bit?

andrewNZ

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#1449074 12-Dec-2015 10:29

Sorry *would* not *will*

I'm aware of the process.

Oldmanakbar

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#1449168 12-Dec-2015 13:25

Wonder how much (totally innocent and unintentional I am sure!) propaganda we will see espousing the benefits of a new flag between now and March?
Perhaps a drinking game where we all down a shot each time someone connected to the current administration mentions the bloody thing? Liver failure for everyone!

Personally I don't care if we change it or not, at least the one that could be the new one isn't something totally insane. I am firmly in the "waste of time and money, good job keeping the population distracted from other stuff John" camp, but if it changes it changes..meh who cares?

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scuwp

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#1449195 12-Dec-2015 14:41

It's all irrelevant. It will never win.

Nothing to see here...move along.

Lazy is such an ugly word, I prefer to call it selective participation

gzt

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#1449197 12-Dec-2015 14:45

scuwp: It's all irrelevant. It will never win.

Nothing to see here...move along.

Because?

Rikkitic

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#1449279 12-Dec-2015 18:04

Because the overwhelming majority of people (total vote < 50%) either don't care or think the existing flag is already doing a perfectly splendid job.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

tdgeek

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#1449294 12-Dec-2015 18:35

Rikkitic: Because the overwhelming majority of people (total vote < 50%) either don't care or think the existing flag is already doing a perfectly splendid job.

Citation needed

Rikkitic

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#1449315 12-Dec-2015 18:50

Too much trouble. I saw the figure in either the Herald or Radio NZ or both.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

mattwnz

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#1449318 12-Dec-2015 19:05

jamesrt: With respect to the cost of the referendum:

a) Everyone quotes similar sums of money; but these figures are rarely attributed to a reliable source, so how to we know they are valid?
b) People seem to consider this as "lost" money, which "would have been better spent on XXXX".

However, it is reasonable to suppose that most of the money spent on the referendum is being introduced into the NZ economy and circulated anyway; to the benefit of a whole bunch of people. I'm sure a lot of the amounts of money being paid are in the form of wages/salaries for various people (for example, the people who get to count the votes), OR for services in the NZ market (for example, paying for the production and printing of the paperwork; the postage; the advertising, etc). In most cases, that "services" money will go into the pockets of those people providing the service, or employed by the service provider. And a certain percentage will be returned to the Government in the form of tax anyway.

"Wasted" money? Not really.
"Helping the NZ economy"? Probably.
"Keeping honest Kiwi's in work"? Well, in the case of NZ Post; absolutely! What else do they actually deliver to people's houses these days??? :-)

The price has been quoted throughout the media numerous times, a google search should find it.

You can say that about any spending though. But for something that doesn't achieve anything productive, in my books, that is a waste of money, when it could have been used for something else tat produced a result. No money was spent on the actual design of the proposed flag, which IMO shows. The actual fern design used isn't up to it, especially when you compare it to the All blacks fern, which was professionally designed and refined.

Whether money gets recycled through the economy is an unknown, it depends if they used overseas providers, if so then it goes overseas. For example, it looks like they may have used google adwords at some stage in the initial stages to advertise it, and google don't pay much tax in NZ.

networkn

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#1449330 12-Dec-2015 19:34

mattwnz:
jamesrt: With respect to the cost of the referendum:

a) Everyone quotes similar sums of money; but these figures are rarely attributed to a reliable source, so how to we know they are valid?
b) People seem to consider this as "lost" money, which "would have been better spent on XXXX".

However, it is reasonable to suppose that most of the money spent on the referendum is being introduced into the NZ economy and circulated anyway; to the benefit of a whole bunch of people. I'm sure a lot of the amounts of money being paid are in the form of wages/salaries for various people (for example, the people who get to count the votes), OR for services in the NZ market (for example, paying for the production and printing of the paperwork; the postage; the advertising, etc). In most cases, that "services" money will go into the pockets of those people providing the service, or employed by the service provider. And a certain percentage will be returned to the Government in the form of tax anyway.

"Wasted" money? Not really.
"Helping the NZ economy"? Probably.
"Keeping honest Kiwi's in work"? Well, in the case of NZ Post; absolutely! What else do they actually deliver to people's houses these days??? :-)

The price has been quoted throughout the media numerous times, a google search should find it.

You can say that about any spending though. But for something that doesn't achieve anything productive, in my books, that is a waste of money, when it could have been used for something else tat produced a result. No money was spent on the actual design of the proposed flag, which IMO shows. The actual fern design used isn't up to it, especially when you compare it to the All blacks fern, which was professionally designed and refined.

Whether money gets recycled through the economy is an unknown, it depends if they used overseas providers, if so then it goes overseas. For example, it looks like they may have used google adwords at some stage in the initial stages to advertise it, and google don't pay much tax in NZ.

It's productive. It will produce a new flag for the country which YOU may not feel is required, or it will confirm that the country wishes to keep the existing flag, a reasonable discussion to have since our flag hasn't changed since it's inception.

There are DOZENS of projects every year that cost considerably more than $17m that result in less or equally non productive outcomes.

scuwp

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#1449331 12-Dec-2015 19:35

tdgeek:
Rikkitic: Because the overwhelming majority of people (total vote < 50%) either don't care or think the existing flag is already doing a perfectly splendid job.

Citation needed

Polls reported in media consistently intimate that a change is highly unlikely. For example:
http://poll.aardwolfresearch.co.nz/FlagsDecision2.aspx
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/287415/current-flag-top-of-the-poll
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/two-thirds-against-changing-flag-poll-shows-6093543
http://www.ibtimes.com/new-zealand-flag-referendum-begins-opinion-poll-shows-citizens-might-stick-existing-2193223
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1510/S00296/nz-flag-referendum-poll.htm
http://www.3news.co.nz/politics/poll-65pct-want-to-keep-flag-2015112418#axzz3u5PJQHAn

Last Story I heard a 3-News poll showed something like 70% in favour of the current flag.

It ain't over until the fat lady sings, but all indications are this is just a big fat waste of time and money.

To clarify, I couldn't care less either way. Bigger issues facing this country.

Lazy is such an ugly word, I prefer to call it selective participation

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