ZOMG we need those anti-terror surveillance laws right now!

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#1198649 16-Dec-2014 20:54

heylinb4nz:
KiwiNZ:
andrewNZ:
KiwiNZ: Hunting is no longer a valid reason to own a firearm.

I cannot tell you how much i disagree with this. In fact I'd say there is a far stronger case for hunting than target shooting. There is no more "need" to shoot targets than there I to hunt, but hunting typically has other benefits.

I said that being a person you spent a big chunk of my youth chasing Goat, Sika and other Deer, Rabbit shooting and being scared whitless by pigs.These days there is too many people in the bush and less places to hunt in safety not to mention there is too many cowboys who are just interested in blasting away at anything.

What about private land with rabbits and other pests ? would you begrudge them hunting ??

Is there any other activity you would like us to stop doing to make you FEEL better ?

How about dialling down the agro

heylinb4nz

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#1198650 16-Dec-2014 20:56

Beccara:
heylinb4nz:
KiwiNZ:
heylinb4nz:
sir1963:

Obviously NO, what you are describing is paranoia.

ANYONE who wants a gun for "self defence" should never be allowed one. They have shown the are frightened, and frightened people do stupid things, they have also shown a willingness to kill another person.

I wonder how many acts of "self defence" are by people deliberately putting themselves into situations where they can 'legally' kill someone.

2012 NZ had a murder rate of 0.9 per 100,000 people, the USA is 4.7 per 100,000 , i.e. over 5 times higher

or how about the rates for violent crime, rape, Aggravated assault in the year 2000 USA vs NZ
http://www.justice.govt.nz/publications/publications-archived/2002/international-comparisons-of-recorded-violent-crime-rates-for-2000/new-zealand-compared-to-usa-violent-crime

Guns have NOT solved any problems in the USA, it just creates MORE dead Americans

How about this one too
Since the December 2012 shooting in Newtown, CT, there have been at least 94 school shootings in America — an average of nearly one a week
http://everytown.org/article/schoolshootings/

You would also think that with the significantly more punitive "justice" system in the USA that if that actually worked, crime would be lower than NZ.

OMG!!! the old get gun turn into a cold blooded killer argument.....seriously you come to the argument with baseless left wing liberal anti gun rubbish like that ?

QUOTE "ANYONE who wants a gun for "self defence" should never be allowed one"

What do the police use them for then ? why are their needs to effective self defence any less than anyone else ?

Again im not arguing that USA doesnt have a gun problem, im simply saying that a select few people willing to do proper training and vetting should be allowed to CCW and that would not create the issue you speak of in a free for all 2nd amendment model.

Again for the record, im not saying guns only, im saying training and making sure the right people have them as well. (not necessarily just police).

I think you need to chill a bit. Your aggression does not assist your position, in fact the opposite.

Its called frustration. Gets so old dredging up USA gun stats and anti-gun rhetoric in answer to perfectly good questions. The whole point is why do we treat a trained police officer\soldier any different to a trained civilian, uniform aside any sane, reasonable and skilled person could (with training) perform the same duty in protection of ones self and\or another.

We treat them different because they are different, Training is only 1/2 the solution - To be effective one must be able to control and counter basic responses and suppress instinctive reactions to a point where you go beyond the simple ability to not react badly to the situation but then also work to resolve the situation the best way you can.

You do realise they are still people ? not superhumans. ie you and I may possess such traits.

Had to LOL though at that statement, pretty sure a good % of cops and soldiers don't possess those abilities. You ever met\seen any ? I have.

heylinb4nz

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#1198660 16-Dec-2014 20:58

KiwiNZ:
heylinb4nz:
KiwiNZ:
andrewNZ:
KiwiNZ: Hunting is no longer a valid reason to own a firearm.

I cannot tell you how much i disagree with this. In fact I'd say there is a far stronger case for hunting than target shooting. There is no more "need" to shoot targets than there I to hunt, but hunting typically has other benefits.

I said that being a person you spent a big chunk of my youth chasing Goat, Sika and other Deer, Rabbit shooting and being scared whitless by pigs.These days there is too many people in the bush and less places to hunt in safety not to mention there is too many cowboys who are just interested in blasting away at anything.

What about private land with rabbits and other pests ? would you begrudge them hunting ??

Is there any other activity you would like us to stop doing to make you FEEL better ?

How about dialling down the agro

Currently at 6/10 will dial down to 2/10 :) thanks for the att check

Dratsab

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#1198665 16-Dec-2014 21:02

heylinb4nz: Currently at 6/10 will dial down to 2/10 :) thanks for the att check

Tbph, with the way you carry on, I'm really surprised anyone actually bothers engaging with you.

Beccara

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#1198668 16-Dec-2014 21:08

heylinb4nz:
Beccara:
heylinb4nz:
KiwiNZ:
heylinb4nz:
sir1963:

Obviously NO, what you are describing is paranoia.

ANYONE who wants a gun for "self defence" should never be allowed one. They have shown the are frightened, and frightened people do stupid things, they have also shown a willingness to kill another person.

I wonder how many acts of "self defence" are by people deliberately putting themselves into situations where they can 'legally' kill someone.

2012 NZ had a murder rate of 0.9 per 100,000 people, the USA is 4.7 per 100,000 , i.e. over 5 times higher

or how about the rates for violent crime, rape, Aggravated assault in the year 2000 USA vs NZ
http://www.justice.govt.nz/publications/publications-archived/2002/international-comparisons-of-recorded-violent-crime-rates-for-2000/new-zealand-compared-to-usa-violent-crime

Guns have NOT solved any problems in the USA, it just creates MORE dead Americans

How about this one too
Since the December 2012 shooting in Newtown, CT, there have been at least 94 school shootings in America — an average of nearly one a week
http://everytown.org/article/schoolshootings/

You would also think that with the significantly more punitive "justice" system in the USA that if that actually worked, crime would be lower than NZ.

OMG!!! the old get gun turn into a cold blooded killer argument.....seriously you come to the argument with baseless left wing liberal anti gun rubbish like that ?

QUOTE "ANYONE who wants a gun for "self defence" should never be allowed one"

What do the police use them for then ? why are their needs to effective self defence any less than anyone else ?

Again im not arguing that USA doesnt have a gun problem, im simply saying that a select few people willing to do proper training and vetting should be allowed to CCW and that would not create the issue you speak of in a free for all 2nd amendment model.

Again for the record, im not saying guns only, im saying training and making sure the right people have them as well. (not necessarily just police).

I think you need to chill a bit. Your aggression does not assist your position, in fact the opposite.

Its called frustration. Gets so old dredging up USA gun stats and anti-gun rhetoric in answer to perfectly good questions. The whole point is why do we treat a trained police officer\soldier any different to a trained civilian, uniform aside any sane, reasonable and skilled person could (with training) perform the same duty in protection of ones self and\or another.

We treat them different because they are different, Training is only 1/2 the solution - To be effective one must be able to control and counter basic responses and suppress instinctive reactions to a point where you go beyond the simple ability to not react badly to the situation but then also work to resolve the situation the best way you can.

You do realise they are still people ? not superhumans. ie you and I may possess such traits.

Had to LOL though at that statement, pretty sure a good % of cops and soldiers don't possess those abilities. You ever met\seen any ? I have.

Traits yes, Experience? No, Experience is key to keeping your cool and helping not hindering when durka durka jumps you in a cafe

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heylinb4nz

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#1198674 16-Dec-2014 21:14

So a 21 year old fresh police constable has how much experience ?

Or 95 percent of police / soldiers for that matter.

Beccara

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#1198683 16-Dec-2014 21:24

Well for cops 6 months of intensive training covering all these aspects and more, On the job supervision for 2 years and pairing with experienced officers, Pounding the pavement for 1-3 years (Cant remeber) ,Continued training and refresher's throughout their career.

This is their job, Conflict resolution is key. Your argument is akin to claiming that the local school nurse is no better than an ER doctor.

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MikeB4

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#1198686 16-Dec-2014 21:28

heylinb4nz: So a 21 year old fresh police constable has how much experience ?

Or 95 percent of police / soldiers for that matter.

My son at 21 had already done a tour of duty in East Timor and two combat tours elsewhere. He had 5 medals and promoted twice......

A large percentage of soldiers in 1st Battalion and 2nd 1st Battalion are returned servicemen. Along with a lot of Logistics and Military Police.

heylinb4nz

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#1198691 16-Dec-2014 21:43

Conflict resolution when faced with a crazed gunman lol.

Draw time, trigger control, situational awareness, waaaay more important. I've seen police training in firearms and its not all crash hot.

ajobbins

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#1198693 16-Dec-2014 21:46

All this gun talk is WAY off topic. Maybe start a different thread? (Or...just don't)

Twitter: ajobbins

heylinb4nz

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#1198694 16-Dec-2014 21:47

Agree, back to survelliance laws.

MikeB4

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#1198716 16-Dec-2014 21:51

ajobbins: All this gun talk is WAY off topic. Maybe start a different thread? (Or...just don't)

It is relevant. Along with surveillance there should be gun control, border control and increased Defence capability.

heylinb4nz

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#1198725 16-Dec-2014 22:24

KiwiNZ:
ajobbins: All this gun talk is WAY off topic. Maybe start a different thread? (Or...just don't)

It is relevant. Along with surveillance there should be gun control, border control and increased Defence capability.

Border control warranted, pretty lax when you consider the drugs and illegal items imported daily.

Gun control, to a degree provided its sensible, not like the police pistol grip = mssa nonsense, storage standards need a big lift, along with the manual paper based system for mailorder of firearms and ammo (easily defeated \ exploited by non licensed people). Generally in NZ we dont have a gun problem worth the amount of $$$ to get us from 4 deaths per year to zero, $$$ better spent on safer roads, health, education etc. The B-cat endorsement system and standards is a good model to lift A-cat upto.

Defence capability, in reality we are to small to fend off an attack, only viable solutions are to militarise our police force of 8000, combined with army would come to 28,000 (enough to fend off Indonesia at best), or team up with licenced firearms holders (250,000) for street to street fighting. If you are referring to joining in with US\AUS operations then I say NO !!!, why waste $$$$ fighting for USA \ Israeli agendas in middle east when we have our own problems here at home in society.

alexx

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#1198749 17-Dec-2014 00:02

freitasm: Stop the presses! No need for terror laws!

The guy in Sydney was a murdered who earlier pleaded guilt of hleping his girlfriend kill a woman, stabbing her 18 times and setting her on fire. He was on bail. He was also accused of sexual assault. He was on bail.

HE WAS ON BAIL.

He was known to the police and the guy was on bail. Not because of lack of terror laws but because current laws let crazy people like him on the streets.

You know, like that New Zealand murderer who got to go out of jail for a weekend and flee the country on a valid passport.

We don't need "terror laws for that".

Sounds like an undiagnosed mental illness was the main issue here.

#include <standard.disclaimer>

MikeB4

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#1198788 17-Dec-2014 07:35

By greater Defends capability I mean....

It is pointless detecting that a terror group is going to fly a plane into say Sky Tower and not be able to intercept that plane. NZ has no air defence capability.

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