ZOMG we need those anti-terror surveillance laws right now!

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#1198801 17-Dec-2014 07:46

alexx:
freitasm: Stop the presses! No need for terror laws!

The guy in Sydney was a murdered who earlier pleaded guilt of hleping his girlfriend kill a woman, stabbing her 18 times and setting her on fire. He was on bail. He was also accused of sexual assault. He was on bail.

HE WAS ON BAIL.

He was known to the police and the guy was on bail. Not because of lack of terror laws but because current laws let crazy people like him on the streets.

You know, like that New Zealand murderer who got to go out of jail for a weekend and flee the country on a valid passport.

We don't need "terror laws for that".

Sounds like an undiagnosed mental illness was the main issue here.

Unfortunately this will still be called a terrorist act , simply because he was a Muslim.
And this of course suits those in power as it will justify even more invasions into peoples privacy, the loss of more rights and freedoms.

Now the other item which someone will correct me if I am wrong is, the shooting started when the "hero" owner of the shop tried to wrestle the gun off this guy when he thought he was dozing off. Up until then no shots had been fired and the situation was for the want of a better word, calm.

Fred99

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#1198839 17-Dec-2014 08:50

sir1963:
alexx:
freitasm: Stop the presses! No need for terror laws!

The guy in Sydney was a murdered who earlier pleaded guilt of hleping his girlfriend kill a woman, stabbing her 18 times and setting her on fire. He was on bail. He was also accused of sexual assault. He was on bail.

HE WAS ON BAIL.

He was known to the police and the guy was on bail. Not because of lack of terror laws but because current laws let crazy people like him on the streets.

You know, like that New Zealand murderer who got to go out of jail for a weekend and flee the country on a valid passport.

We don't need "terror laws for that".

Sounds like an undiagnosed mental illness was the main issue here.

Unfortunately this will still be called a terrorist act , simply because he was a Muslim.

While I agree that might be unfortunate, there is actually some legitimacy in calling this a "terrorist act".
It would be naive to think that his actions weren't inspired by ISIL propaganda, he did apparently request an ISIL flag to be delivered to the cafe.
They (ISIL) might not want to know him - but he wanted to be associated with them.
Some mental aberration / affliction he had, and his criminal history, doesn't mean he wasn't a terrorist - ideologically driven.
Some form of insanity, psychopathy, result of brainwashing etc would seem to be prerequisite to carrying out terrorist acts in any case.

heylinb4nz

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#1198873 17-Dec-2014 09:52

KiwiNZ: By greater Defends capability I mean....

It is pointless detecting that a terror group is going to fly a plane into say Sky Tower and not be able to intercept that plane. NZ has no air defence capability.

The PAAC-4 looks like good value at < $2million USD. Pepper a few units around Auckland penisulas and mabey the hills around Wellington. If purely for shooting down wayward civilian planes we wouldnt need to keep upgrading them.

Again though cost vs chance of happening ??

roobarb

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#1198876 17-Dec-2014 10:01

KiwiNZ: By greater Defends capability I mean....

It is pointless detecting that a terror group is going to fly a plane into say Sky Tower and not be able to intercept that plane. NZ has no air defence capability.

If remember correctly, the US had detected that a known terror group was going to use civilian planes as weapons, and they spend a third of the entire planets defence budget.

Fred99

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#1198877 17-Dec-2014 10:02

alexx:

Sounds like an undiagnosed mental illness was the main issue here.

I'm not comfortable with that being called the "main issue".

IMO the "main issue" was that this man had a known serious criminal history, was facing extremely serious charges, yet was "out on bail". Part of the reason that he was free was that he was bailed before changes were made to NSW bail laws anyway, as a response to other incidents where people on bail facing serious charges have committed heinous crimes - as has happened here. That he appears to have been a complete nutter is an associated but secondary issue.
Doing something to try to prevent similar incidents seems like a good idea.
I'm of the opinion that we lock up too many people who don't pose a risk of committing acts of violence, and are too slow to lock up people who do pose that risk and have a history to show it.

heylinb4nz

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#1198893 17-Dec-2014 10:18

Fred99:
alexx:

Sounds like an undiagnosed mental illness was the main issue here.

I'm not comfortable with that being called the "main issue".

IMO the "main issue" was that this man had a known serious criminal history, was facing extremely serious charges, yet was "out on bail". Part of the reason that he was free was that he was bailed before changes were made to NSW bail laws anyway, as a response to other incidents where people on bail facing serious charges have committed heinous crimes - as has happened here. That he appears to have been a complete nutter is an associated but secondary issue.
Doing something to try to prevent similar incidents seems like a good idea.
I'm of the opinion that we lock up too many people who don't pose a risk of committing acts of violence, and are too slow to lock up people who do pose that risk and have a history to show it.

This right here

How many times has this happened here and around the world ?

The authorities in AUS/US and even NZ are to busy watching and putting resources into people that pose threats to government power, not people that pose threats to general population. If anything allowing these public threats to commit their crimes bolsters public opinion for even more legislation to protect the latter.

The government have no problem encroaching on the rights of law abiding, tax paying public, yet take a neutered approach to dealing with non tax paying criminal scum.

The key word here being "tax paying" better to control those who pay government money than to control those who contribute nothing.

MikeB4

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#1198894 17-Dec-2014 10:20

heylinb4nz:
KiwiNZ: By greater Defends capability I mean....

It is pointless detecting that a terror group is going to fly a plane into say Sky Tower and not be able to intercept that plane. NZ has no air defence capability.

The PAAC-4 looks like good value at < $2million USD. Pepper a few units around Auckland penisulas and mabey the hills around Wellington. If purely for shooting down wayward civilian planes we wouldnt need to keep upgrading them.

Again though cost vs chance of happening ??

Threat detected, phone call to RNZAF , hey guys can wee have a ground to air missile sent to Hamilton. RNZAF calls Ohakea to dispatch Aircraft, C140 loaded and does the 40 minute flight to Hamilton. Weapon unloaded set up armed ready unfortunately the attack occurred 40 minute before they arrived.

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MikeB4

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#1198906 17-Dec-2014 10:24

heylinb4nz:
Fred99:
alexx:

Sounds like an undiagnosed mental illness was the main issue here.

I'm not comfortable with that being called the "main issue".

IMO the "main issue" was that this man had a known serious criminal history, was facing extremely serious charges, yet was "out on bail". Part of the reason that he was free was that he was bailed before changes were made to NSW bail laws anyway, as a response to other incidents where people on bail facing serious charges have committed heinous crimes - as has happened here. That he appears to have been a complete nutter is an associated but secondary issue.
Doing something to try to prevent similar incidents seems like a good idea.
I'm of the opinion that we lock up too many people who don't pose a risk of committing acts of violence, and are too slow to lock up people who do pose that risk and have a history to show it.

This right here

How many times has this happened here and around the world ?

The authorities in AUS/US and even NZ are to busy watching and putting resources into people that pose threats to government power, not people that pose threats to general population. If anything allowing these public threats to commit their crimes bolsters public opinion for even more legislation to protect the latter.

The government have no problem encroaching on the rights of law abiding, tax paying public, yet take a neutered approach to dealing with non tax paying criminal scum.

The key word here being "tax paying" better to control those who pay government money than to control those who contribute nothing.

hmmm even if you remove the fluff surely the News reports shed some light, these groups are real honestly they are, its not make believe TV. We are not immune, to think we are is inviting disaster. I am not advocating shut down or panic I am advocating prudent care and prevention methods. If we dont try to prevent we will never prevent.

MikeB4

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#1198913 17-Dec-2014 10:25

roobarb:
KiwiNZ: By greater Defends capability I mean....

It is pointless detecting that a terror group is going to fly a plane into say Sky Tower and not be able to intercept that plane. NZ has no air defence capability.

If remember correctly, the US had detected that a known terror group was going to use civilian planes as weapons, and they spend a third of the entire planets defence budget.

links to sources?

1/3 the planets defence budgets that would be many multiples of a billion

roobarb

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#1198916 17-Dec-2014 10:29

KiwiNZ: links to sources?

1/3 the planets defence budgets that would be many multiples of a billion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/military-spending-cuts/u-s-military-spending-dwarfs-rest-world-n37461

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_intelligence_before_the_attacks

heylinb4nz

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#1198919 17-Dec-2014 10:34

KiwiNZ:
heylinb4nz:
KiwiNZ: By greater Defends capability I mean....

It is pointless detecting that a terror group is going to fly a plane into say Sky Tower and not be able to intercept that plane. NZ has no air defence capability.

The PAAC-4 looks like good value at < $2million USD. Pepper a few units around Auckland penisulas and mabey the hills around Wellington. If purely for shooting down wayward civilian planes we wouldnt need to keep upgrading them.

Again though cost vs chance of happening ??

Threat detected, phone call to RNZAF , hey guys can wee have a ground to air missile sent to Hamilton. RNZAF calls Ohakea to dispatch Aircraft, C140 loaded and does the 40 minute flight to Hamilton. Weapon unloaded set up armed ready unfortunately the attack occurred 40 minute before they arrived.

So you would advocate having a multi million $$ network\grid of PAAC-4 around every major NZ city based on the fact that 13 years ago someone flew a plane into a building. Yet you'd deny trained joe public from having a CCW permit to defend against all manner of crime that occurs on a daily basis ? remind we who is paranoid.

MikeB4

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#1198921 17-Dec-2014 10:37

No, reactivate 14 and 75 squadrons and purchase some Fighters.

heylinb4nz

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#1198922 17-Dec-2014 10:42

KiwiNZ:
hmmm even if you remove the fluff surely the News reports shed some light, these groups are real honestly they are, its not make believe TV. We are not immune, to think we are is inviting disaster. I am not advocating shut down or panic I am advocating prudent care and prevention methods. If we don't try to prevent we will never prevent.

I'm not sure what worse terrorists or people on our home soil who have been institutionalized by the system to the point where they believe the lies and are happy to hand over to government what little rights we have left.

At least terrorists do what they do for a belief (no matter how warped), vs western politicians and ngos who only seek to line their pockets, hold power and effectively screw the people that voted them in under the lie called democracy.

I don't condone terrorist activity, but i'm not so blind that I can realise that some people closer to home are just as much a threat to society for a different set of reasons \ agenda.

heylinb4nz

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#1198924 17-Dec-2014 10:45

KiwiNZ: No, reactivate 14 and 75 squadrons and purchase some Fighters.

Before or after we tackle water quality, housing, education, health, crime, mental illness ??? or do we just pass some more legislation to tax \ hit the middle class to pay for it all ??

roobarb

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#1198931 17-Dec-2014 10:49

Wasn't the most famous terrorist attack on New Zealand soil actually perpetrated by the French government?

You can't stop your house being burgled and you can't stop a drunk driver crashing into your car.

Why do people expect 100% immunity from terrorism?

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