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grant_k
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  #55521 15-Dec-2006 00:16
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sbiddle: I still find it ironic that so many "experts" (aka politicians) believe that cheap broadband is essential for a knowledge based economy. How exactly?

There's a simple answer to that:

The cost of broadband is like a tax on the whole of NZ's economy.  The more we have to pay for broadband, the less is available to be spent on other goods and services.  All businesses need broadband in the 21st century in order to complete basic tasks like Internet Banking, E-mail and updating their web site at an acceptable speed, not to mention finding other resources on the web by using Google etc.  To expect businesses to function efficiently using dialup is not realistic in the year 2006.

Can we agree on this basic premise then:  Businesses need broadband in order to function efficiently.

I'm not saying that unlimited ("all you can eat") data traffic is typically needed for business.  In that sphere I would have to agree with others who have posted in this thread that this is mostly the domain of File Sharers and Bit Torrent enthusiasts.

However, I also strongly believe that MANY businesses need broadband with a faster upload speed than 128kbps.  Otherwise it takes far too long to send large e-mail attachments, upload via FTP etc.

At the risk of getting off-topic, I would like to take our 3-person IT business as an example of broadband requirements:

For over 6 years we clung doggedly to a Full-Speed Jetstream plan until the very last moment when Telecom withdrew it in May this year.  Even though we were paying about $90 per month for a 600MB data cap, to us, the need for a decent upload speed meant we didn't have any choice.  The only alternative was a UBS plan with just 128kbps upload speed.

For at least a year or two, many players in the NZ broadband scene were calling for Telecom to offer a faster upload speed than 128kbps on their UBS plans.  Yet they were ignored until Telecom mysteriously had a change of heart in May this year and started offering 512kbps upload.  There are no prizes for remembering what else happened in May that might have had something to do with this change of heart...

So at that point, we could get a broadband plan with 3.5Mbps down / 512kbps up and a 10GB data cap for $80 per month.

$80 is still quite a lot of money for that service don't you think?

The 10GB data cap was far more than we needed (typically we only use 1 or 2 GB per month) but this was the cheapest plan that offered a half-decent upload speed.  Still not the 800kbps or so that we had been getting for the past 6 years on the old "Full Speed" Jetstream plan, but way better than 128kbps nonetheless.

Fast forward to October and the great "unleashed" debacle.  The heat was really on Telecom by this stage and they finally agreed to throw open the taps and let our DSL connections run at Maximum Line Speed (just like we had in 1999 when Jetstream was launched).

Another new plan was launched which provided Max/Max line speeds with just a 2GB data cap for $50 per month.  This plan is pretty much tailor made for our business, so I have no complaints on that score, but we are still paying $50 per month for 2GB of data traffic, albeit at much faster speeds.

$50 per month for broadband plus line rentals for 3 phone lines @ $40 per month per line adds up to $170 per month.

Added to that are all the toll charges as well as the various "Smart Phone Services" that we need for things to work efficiently.  By the time GST goes on top we are paying between $250 and $300 per month for 3 phone lines and broadband.

$250 to $300 per month for 3 phone lines and broadband is still quite a lot of money don't you think?

This is my response to the topic of this thread:  "Does Mr Cunliffe really know what kiwis want?" and then to Jama's initial statement:

Jama: I guess when Mr Cunliffe says 'kiwis' he could be referring to two people.


The $250 to $300 per month we are paying for Telecommunications Services is just another tax on our business.  How many business owners are there who wouldn't jump at the chance to pay less while still maintaining the services they need?

By legislating Unbundling of the Local Loop (ULL), Mr Cunliffe is poised to deliver such a saving to NZ businesses as I will endeavour to explain below.  That is most definitely "what Kiwis want!" and it's a lot more than 2 people we are talking about here.

The question now becomes:

What is a fair price to pay for Telecommunications Services?

At this point we open a whole can of worms but it doesn't seem unreasonable to compare the prices we pay in NZ to other countries of a similar size, albeit with some reasonable extra loading due to the cost of international connectivity via the Southern Cross Cable etc.

Whichever way you look at it, we are paying dearly in NZ for Telecommunication Services compared to many other first-world countries.  Without ULL, we would be stuck forever with the need to rent voice lines in order to get broadband when it should be possible to only order the services you actually need via Naked DSL.  In our case, I can see the day coming when we have no voice lines at all, but instead use some sort of Virtual PABX and VoIP to achieve the same thing at much lower cost than is possible under the present regime.

As with many things, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating.  What I have outlined here are the benefits to our business if ULL goes according to plan.

Some would say that Mr Cunliffe has made the wrong decision and that we should have just stuck our heads in the sand and stayed with the status quo (no ULL).  To most thinking people however, this is not an option because "if you keep doing what you've always done, you keep getting what you've always got".  The Profit Margin on 85% of our monthly Telecommunications expenditure is currently going to offshore owners of Telecom who repatriate most of it overseas via fat dividend payments.

How exactly does that "keep our country working?"

Now I'll sit back in my chair and wait for the flaming to start...




bradstewart
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#55523 15-Dec-2006 02:10
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<mindless rant>

It doesn't really matter how much our broadband costs. Its a luxury. The government puts so much focus on how important it is for us to have fast cheap internet access. Honestly I would rather pay $100 per month for crap internet while knowing that we have first rate health and education systems lower crime rates.

While waste time on this issue when there are so many more important things facing this country. So what if it takes you 3minutes to download that mp3 instead of 30seconds.

I can guarantee the vast majority of NZers really don't care about their internet speeds. They like me would rather better healthcare, better education, a decent tax cut and maybe a lower chance of being attacked.

You say that broadand is a tax on business. Is the price causing harm to businesses? Why blame broadband? Lets forget about that and lower the cost of electricity. Or petrol. Or cut wages. Why single out one thing?

My power bill last month was in excess of $250 while my phone + broadband was only around $100. I spend about $150 per month on petrol yet the government keep increasing the tax on that. Lets unbundle the petrol pumps.

Did you know that a majority of retired people now struggle to feed themselves. After years of contributing to the country many have to make a choice between food and heating. I wonder if they will be happy about the benefits fatser cheaper broadband will bring them. Or maybe this government doesn't care about solving the real problems.

Its easier to take down Telecom and get the big "We're reducing the price of broandband and therefore making your life better" type of headline than it is to really serve the country and fix the real issues we have. That and paying out ridiculous amounts of money to Maori for treaty claims. Some tribes are now on their third FULL and FINAL settlements. Wheres my handout? Now I hear they want access to the telecommunications sector under the treaty. I believe thats because around 1800 some tribe laid down a very extensive copper lines network and those damned europeans stole it from them. They really enjoyed those customary porn access rights.

Tomorrow I may break my leg then spend two days waiting at A&E for attention and then be murdered on my way home. But don't worry at least my funeral will streamed at HD over that new fast, cheap broadband. It really could happen.

</mindless rant>

TinyTim
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  #55530 15-Dec-2006 07:59
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bradstewart:

It doesn't really matter how much our broadband costs. Its a luxury.

Um, Broadband = luxury means someone is making unnecessarily high profit off broadband.

I'm afraid there is increasing opinion around the world that broadband is a commodity.

http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=broadband+commodity




 



TinyTim
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  #55534 15-Dec-2006 08:42
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juha: Well... I really didn't want to bring it up, but Telecom is 85% owned by overseas interests.


Telecom's latest annual report lists the top 20 shareholders, which make up about 79% of its shares. At least a third of that 79% is owned by NZ companies - 28% of the total shareholding.

So the overseas interests can be no more than 78%.

The remaining shareholders are primarily Australian banks that operate here, so I'd guess a significant portion of that would be managed funds on behalf of NZ investors.





 

freitasm
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  #55537 15-Dec-2006 08:58
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bradstewart: It doesn't really matter how much our broadband costs. Its a luxury. The government puts so much focus on how important it is for us to have fast cheap internet access. Honestly I would rather pay $100 per month for crap internet while knowing that we have first rate health and education systems lower crime rates.

While waste time on this issue when there are so many more important things facing this country. So what if it takes you 3minutes to download that mp3 instead of 30seconds.

I can guarantee the vast majority of NZers really don't care about their internet speeds. They like me would rather better healthcare, better education, a decent tax cut and maybe a lower chance of being attacked.

You say that broadand is a tax on business. Is the price causing harm to businesses? Why blame broadband? Lets forget about that and lower the cost of electricity. Or petrol. Or cut wages. Why single out one thing?


My parents-in-law live in a rural area (albeit only a few minutes from Wellington). They both rely on the Internet and telecommunications for their businesses. He was a CEO and now he's an acting GM for a research company, attending the occasional meetings overseas, which requires some e-mails with attachments to be sent and received. Her business relies on documents to be sent and received.

Until last month they used dial-up. Since then we moved to an Xtra account, 1GB/month - more than enough for their use.

So, yes Internet access is a commodity. Businesses rely on that now. No point discussin this.

Grant17: Can we agree on this basic premise then:  Businesses need broadband in order to function efficiently.


Yes, agreed.

I think the whole problem is our and the minister's perception of "all you can eat".

Leechers want "maximum speed, maximum traffic allowed" so they can download their pirated TV programs, movies, warez.

Businesses want "maximum speed, generous traffic allowed, guaranteed SLA" so they can keep their services rolling.

Professionals want "maximum speed, reasonable traffic allowed" so they can keep connected with their VPNs, upload to their servers, download the images for testing.

Consumers want "maximum speed, peace of mind with traffic cost" so they don't get a large bill at the end of the month.

ISPs are battling the Leechers, and those are make noise, and people think they represent 100% of New Zealand Internet population. They don't.

So, which group is the minister trying to reach here?

Grant17: The $250 to $300 per month we are paying for Telecommunications Services is just another tax on our business.  How many business owners are there who wouldn't jump at the chance to pay less while still maintaining the services they need?


No, it's not a tax, it's a cost.

Grant17: What is a fair price to pay for Telecommunications Services?


Certainly it will vary from user to user, but leechers will say that $39/month is still too expensive - actually since they get content for free they'd probably cry to have free Internet access as well.

Someone posted in other thread about a business service with guaranteed SLA, costing about $400/month - and he commented "You get what you pay for". You can't expect a 4x4 do the job of a Scania.

About "unlimited", this is my last post on this topic: imagine you purchase a monthly unlimited gold pass from a bus company in Wellington. Albeit you can hop in and out of the bus within Wellington, you can't jump on a StageCoach bus and hop out in Auckland. Is it "unlimited"? Yes, unlimited travels, but limited coverage. Many people take the condition "within Wellington" for granted. Some may not read the fineprint and then be surprised it won't be allowed to use the ticket when trying to go to Auckland by bus. Some smart ones may figure if they scream "unlimited is unlimited" a lot they might even get a free ticket for a couple of trips to Auckland, for free.

Shall we fight for "unlimited bus" to be "to anywhere, at anytime, please go faster Mr Driver"?











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mclayma
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  #57686 12-Jan-2007 01:01
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bradstewart:

It doesn't really matter how much our broadband costs. Its a luxury. The government puts so much focus on how important it is for us to have fast cheap internet access. Honestly I would rather pay $100 per month for crap internet while knowing that we have first rate health and education systems lower crime rates.

While waste time on this issue when there are so many more important things facing this country. So what if it takes you 3minutes to download that mp3 instead of 30seconds.

I can guarantee the vast majority of NZers really don't care about their internet speeds. They like me would rather better healthcare, better education, a decent tax cut and maybe a lower chance of being attacked.

You say that broadand is a tax on business. Is the price causing harm to businesses? Why blame broadband? Lets forget about that and lower the cost of electricity. Or petrol. Or cut wages. Why single out one thing?

My power bill last month was in excess of $250 while my phone + broadband was only around $100. I spend about $150 per month on petrol yet the government keep increasing the tax on that. Lets unbundle the petrol pumps.

Did you know that a majority of retired people now struggle to feed themselves. After years of contributing to the country many have to make a choice between food and heating. I wonder if they will be happy about the benefits fatser cheaper broadband will bring them. Or maybe this government doesn't care about solving the real problems.

Its easier to take down Telecom and get the big "We're reducing the price of broandband and therefore making your life better" type of headline than it is to really serve the country and fix the real issues we have. That and paying out ridiculous amounts of money to Maori for treaty claims. Some tribes are now on their third FULL and FINAL settlements. Wheres my handout? Now I hear they want access to the telecommunications sector under the treaty. I believe thats because around 1800 some tribe laid down a very extensive copper lines network and those damned europeans stole it from them. They really enjoyed those customary porn access rights.

Tomorrow I may break my leg then spend two days waiting at A&E for attention and then be murdered on my way home. But don't worry at least my funeral will streamed at HD over that new fast, cheap broadband. It really could happen.




I agree with your comments Brad. One of my family members has had to wait two years for a hip operation after working all their lives and contributing to the government coffers.
But Hey its okay! They can take comfort from the fact that they will have Faster, Cheaper Broadband and they can download those 1940s hits to there 40gb Ipod in record time.

By the way Jama great topic.




"Communication" a basic human need.

 
 
 

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TinyTim
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  #57693 12-Jan-2007 07:39
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When Grant17 said:
Grant17: Can we agree on this basic premise then: Businesses need broadband in order to function efficiently.

...this includes health organisations. The advantages of high speed internet to the health sector are fairly well known. (though doesn't necessarily mean they use Xtra ADSL)

And ok our health system isn't perfect - a two year wait for anything is appalling - but I can assure you no one (including Government) is investing in broadband without there being some sort of return in it. The health sector (following your example) benefits directly from the country having better/cheaper broadband by being able to share their medical databases, medical images etc more easily, and indirectly because the Government has more to spend on health because the business sector operates more efficiently and generates more tax.

(While the original comments were more about consumer broadband than business broadband you can't have one without the other, and it's business broadband that gives the real benefit to the economy.)




 

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