Does Mr Cunliffe really know what kiwis want?

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Jama

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#10830 14-Dec-2006 13:17

My mother wants a more efficient and fairer health system.
My wife and I would like a tax cut so we can continue to afford to raise our son at home

According to Mr Cunliffe: "Kiwis are demanding fast, 'all you can eat' broadband, which the legislation is designed to deliver"

Looking at the number of food packs being distributed by welfare agencies a number of kiwis seem to want 'all you can eat' food.

I guess when Mr Cunliffe says 'kiwis' he could be referring to two people.

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Hawkes Bay
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#55464 14-Dec-2006 13:35

Id like lower taxes across the board, and regulated petrol prices.
I would also like see our emergency services fully government funded.
And I want a Navman.

(In no particular order)

freitasm

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#55477 14-Dec-2006 16:33

I would like a tax break.

And an explanation how "all you can eat" broadband would benefit the average family with two kids and 39% income tax, and how the pirate leecher would not benefit...

alasta

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#55481 14-Dec-2006 16:55

freitasm: I would like a tax break.

And an explanation how "all you can eat" broadband would benefit the average family with two kids and 39% income tax, and how the pirate leecher would not benefit...

Good point. I realise that this is a generalisation, but I feel that the more productive uses of the internet such as research, travel, and social networking tend to place a low demand on Internet traffic compared with irresponsible uses of the Internet such as piracy, and spamming.

juha

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#55483 14-Dec-2006 17:18

So, the logic of this thread is... "let's take all the money invested in telecommunications and spend it on tax cuts". That's bold policy indeed. :)

I should perhaps point out that Cunliffe's not the minister of finance or the PM for that matter.

Yes, tax cuts would be nice, but I don't think slower and more expensive broadband is the way to achieve that.

Juha

freitasm

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#55484 14-Dec-2006 17:38

"Kiwis are demanding fast, 'all you can eat' broadband, which the legislation is designed to deliver" is a generalisation. He started it.

As Alasta pointed out, the broadband needs for a family with a couple of kids at school age is vey unlikely to "demand all you can eat broadband". Something with a good traffic allowance, yes...

But "all-you-can-ear broadband"? Yeah, right... I use broadband heavily - it's my job. I have four PCs at home, running my own mail server. One of the daily Geekzone backups is sent down to my server here, and in the last few months I downloaded a couple of Windows Vista images every month for testing. And even so we struggled to use over 50GB/month.

This is while some people complain they use more than 120GB/month and the ISPs is "limiting their ability to download things at full speed".

Don't tell me these people using 120GB/month are average kiwi users. If those are business, there are special plans for them. Those people are very unlikely to be families with kids at school and I don't think the government should regulate the market. Enough regulation.

I've seen a comment other day about New Zealand MPs proposing to ban something, and how the first alternative MPs seem to reach is alway "ban". Enough of regulation, more education. Free the market.

antoniosk

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#55485 14-Dec-2006 18:20

Humph

I'd like an income that better matched what I was overseas; which is about 50% more than what I'm getting now. I can cope with a 40% tax rate, but i find it difficult having to pay 1st world prices for things (cars, tv's etc) on a 2nd world salary.

If this were true of more people in NZ, then we'd also have an economy where people can afford to pay more, rather than the discount services we seem to have here (except mobile). By paying more, people make profit and can therefore reinvest in their services. No Profit = no reinvestment....

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Antoniosk

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#55490 14-Dec-2006 18:57

antoniosk: Humph

I'd like an income that better matched what I was overseas; which is about 50% more than what I'm getting now. I can cope with a 40% tax rate, but i find it difficult having to pay 1st world prices for things (cars, tv's etc) on a 2nd world salary.

I know we are not getting off topic but this is essentially the problem. We are a country with a high cost of goods and how sararies. Compare NZ to the UK where many people in skilled jobs are earning roughly 3x the NZ salary yet are paying similair prices for goods and services. I have friends who never spend a weekend in London primarily because when you're earning 900 pounds per week spending 50 pounds to fly to Europe for the weekend is nothing. The big question is how you fix such a problem. If everybody in NZ got a 20% pay increase overnight the for the economy would enter a meltdown.

I still find it ironic that so many "experts" (aka politicians) believe that cheap broadband is essential for a knowledge based economy. How exactly?

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juha

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#55494 14-Dec-2006 19:13

I worked in Denmark (my first real job) and paid 55% income tax. Yet I was far better off than my mates in Sweden paying 40% or less for similar work.

That's because I was paid far better in Denmark.

By international standards, the 20-25% direct tax plus sales tax and levies, "user pays" whatever we pay here isn't high, but taken out of a low salary, it hurts. Why? Because as Antoniosk says, we have to pay first-world prices for a number of items here, like housing.

If the assumption is correct that broadband is worth nothing at all and that all other countries, richer than New Zealand that have better network connectivity are simply deluded, then yes, by all means we're going down the wrong route. Geekzone is bad, because it needs broadband to work well. The Internet is bad, because it needs broadband to work well. Trade Me is bad, etc.

So no more Internet for you guys! Turn off your DSL and wireless modems, and resign from those telco divisions that misguidedly sell broadband to people who stupidly want it.

As for politicians knowing how to build a knowledge economy, well... I'd trust them for that as far as a telco.

The intelligence is at the edges of the network, but it and its core needs to be fast and efficient. Why is that so difficult to understand? Are slow and expensive or even no network connections better?

Juha

freitasm

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#55498 14-Dec-2006 19:35

juha: If the assumption is correct that broadband is worth nothing at all and that all other countries, richer than New Zealand that have better network connectivity are simply deluded, then yes, by all means we're going down the wrong route. Geekzone is bad, because it needs broadband to work well. The Internet is bad, because it needs broadband to work well. Trade Me is bad, etc.

So no more Internet for you guys! Turn off your DSL and wireless modems, and resign from those telco divisions that misguidedly sell broadband to people who stupidly want it.

The intelligence is at the edges of the network, but it and its core needs to be fast and efficient. Why is that so difficult to understand? Are slow and expensive or even no network connections better?

You are wrong there, sorry. No one said broadband is worth nothing. Au contraire, young master, it's worth a lot. But for a minister to say that all kiwis want "all you can eat broadband" is simply out of context in all senses. Kiwis want jobs, housing, food. And broadband. Some kiwis even want "unlimited" Internet for $39/month so they can download TV programmes - as if this would help grow the knowledge economy.

No one here said anything about the network core not being in need of investment. The whole thing is about "why 'all you can eat internet'?"... Tell us how this is gonna be used, and why people should get this at $39/month instead of providing fast internet access for $39/month for everyone, and fast internet with unlimited traffic allowance at $300 for the pirates?

Of course there will be complaints... Like people who want to download as much as possible at unlimited speeds, 24x7x365...

juha

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#55500 14-Dec-2006 19:53

Well, I don't know what the problem is really.

Is it that we haven't solved all social ills and lifted the economic stakes before getting broadband and therefore should not have fast network connections until that happens?

Is it that Telecom should remain shielded by the State from competition? I thought competition was good?

Is it that broadband has no intrinsic value and is only used by file sharers? Surely not?

The thing is though, why should I who don't know everything, tell anyone how to use fast broadband? This is entirely up to the imagination and needs of others. Errm, *cough* Net Neutrality *cough*

To be honest, why have this discussion instead of doing what Telecom's promising, which is to "Just Get On With It"?

Juha

Jama

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#55502 14-Dec-2006 20:24

Wow my post really started something, yet again.

Mr Cunliffe made a very generalistic comment when he refered to 'kiwis' in the broadest sense. He should have said that 'some kiwis' are demanding.

I have already seen another thread regarding how much bandwidth some GZ'ers consume and it is staggering. I mean 120GB p/month how does that help the economy? By all means lets have fast internet and realistic caps but first the government should subsidise PC's down to $100 after all if people can not afford food for the table they sure as hell can not afford $1000 for a PC.

How do services such as iTunes help the economy? Services which are hosted offshore using ecommerce that does not touch NZ does not keep our country working.

juha

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#55504 14-Dec-2006 20:36

Well... I really didn't want to bring it up, but Telecom is 85% owned by overseas interests.

That said, good point about iTunes. It's a business that doesn't just benefit from broadband, it'd be impossible without it. Personally, I don't think iTunes offers a spectacularly good service or value as such, but it's there, and it's hard to imagine iTunes happening in the US without cheap, ubiquitous broadband. Maybe there will be a Kiwi version that is better in tune (ha!) with the local market that is now building thanks to better access to broadband here.

I think the new regulation presents opportunities rather than obstructions and it's opening up a market that has been artificially left fallow for way too long. There's no doubt in my mind that Telecom will compete hard in that new and larger market and be succesful as well - but other players will have a share too.

Juha

Jama

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#55505 14-Dec-2006 20:56

It is going to take a lot more than regulation and ubiquitous broadband to thrust this country into the '21st century'. May be kiwis have such a fondness for real estate because this is the only tangible thing that is not foreign owned. A lot companies have gone to foreign ownership this year and more and more will follow. Pacific Equity partners and others will end up owning more of this country than Telecom do or ever will.

juha

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#55506 14-Dec-2006 21:02

Yes... it's not going to be easy, and I am like you not a little concerned about the degree of overseas ownerships of the various bits and pieces of NZ's economy. Not so much because there are overseas interests here, but moreso because they don't have Kiwi counterweights.

Juha

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#55519 15-Dec-2006 00:03

juha: I thought competition was good?

Someone should tell the Australian Government, *cough* Qantas *cough*.

nzbnw

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