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#693462 29-Sep-2012 19:23

gzt:
Kyanar:The SIS is legally prohibited from intercepting communications to or from citizens or permanent residents. A lawful intercept of a citizen or resident can only be performed by the Police, with a warrant.

Wrong.

No, you are wrong. The SIS cannot wiretap a citizen or permanent resident. This is the law.

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#693472 29-Sep-2012 20:13

Kyanar:
gzt:
Kyanar:The SIS is legally prohibited from intercepting communications to or from citizens or permanent residents. A lawful intercept of a citizen or resident can only be performed by the Police, with a warrant.

Wrong.

No, you are wrong. The SIS cannot wiretap a citizen or permanent resident. This is the law.

Well, I was hoping to drive you to google to verify your unsupported assertion. That didn't work too well did it?

You are wrong: The SIS can: http://www.nzsis.govt.nz/interception.html

The SIS can. The GCSB cannot.

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#693473 29-Sep-2012 20:14

The police were investigating already. The real question is how did the GCSB get involved in this?

Was it the case the police did not have enough of a case to convince a judge to give them a communications intercept warrant like they normally would?

So the only way forward for them was side stepping that process by using the GCSB? Really bad.

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#693480 29-Sep-2012 20:59

gzt: The police were investigating already. The real question is how did the GCSB get involved in this?
.

What they SHOULD have done is intercepted his cell/internet traffic and passed it off to the NSA->FBI via ECHELON. (The NSA can allegedly intercept anything off ECHELON from AU/UK/Canada/NZ without the natives knowing)
That way it would actually be legal.
From the sounds of it, the police went to the GCSB and the GCSB went "sure!" instead of nudging the NSA and having them do it then pass it through the FBI->NZ Police.

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#693481 29-Sep-2012 21:01

mckenndk:
Brendan:
Linuxluver: If the GCSB was working under a misunderstanding from late 2009 until a week or two ago about who they could legally spy on, shouldn't PM John Key be investigating who else may have been illegally spied on?

I'd certainly like to know what crimes may have been committed in the two year period during which they didn't know what a NZ resident was.

The PM was just on the radio saying it was a brain fade by one person.

For two years? In all cases?

Reeeeally?

Exactly. I think that it goes deeper than many realize though.

This government is shaping up to be one of the most callous, corrupt governments New Zealand has ever known. This GCSB is simply the last in a long list of shonky dealings or callous attitudes. Off the top of my head:

Passing a Copyright law change at mid night as part of the amendments for helping Christchurch, after a previous attempt was protested by the voters and dropped. Later it was revealed that the US had paid several hundred thousand dollars to get it en-acted.
Mining of environmentally protected land, a policy hidden during the election and revealed only afterward.
Nasty 'private' comments between Shonky JohnKey and Dirty Bird Banks (tea pot tapes), showing their uncensored true feelings about normal people.
The head of a long-voted for system set up to provide for the poor and vulnerable publicly declaring she 'doesn't need to read' any statistics about child poverty.
NZ Government agencies are increasingly attempting to exempt themselves from the Official Information Act - e.g. keeping what they do secret from the voter.
Grand claims from National - quietly backpedaled and watered down when the media spotlight - and the voters - attention is elsewhere. (e.g. jobs, childcare demands on beneficiaries, etc).
Asset sales policy that has been universally panned - even buy Governments own Treasury Dept - yet, curiously, is still being rammed through... It's almost like John Key is got a personal stake in it....
The Megadownload debacle. Really, where do I start? A corrupt foreign government is told by one of it's owners to 'make an example of' a competitor, and so talks to a few of it's lapdogs in NZ. What then results is a comedy of inept key-stone cops capers, forgetful politicians, missing evidence, cowboy tactics, illegal spying and influence pedaling. I do not know if I should laugh at the incompetence and be thankful, or cry that they cannot even run a good conspiracy let alone a country!
And finally (although I am certain I have missed many other good examples): the total, total inability to actually FIX anything significant! Did they think we wouldn't notice? For all the big claims - nothing is actually better, and not ever likely to BE better. WTF? Is it the 1990's again???

Not to worry it will be forgotten about in a few weeks especially by the National Voters.

Dion

Sadly all to true. It's a quasi religious ideology, and like any religion it's tenets have to be accepted at face value and never questioned. Therefore any counter evidence is dismissed.

The whole system has been explored in various university studies, and there are related studies that are quite interesting.

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#693485 29-Sep-2012 21:31

kyhwana2:
gzt: The police were investigating already. The real question is how did the GCSB get involved in this?

Was it the case the police did not have enough of a case to convince a judge to give them a communications intercept warrant like they normally would?

So the only way forward for them was side stepping that process by using the GCSB? Really bad.

What they SHOULD have done is intercepted his cell/internet traffic and passed it off to the NSA->FBI via ECHELON. (The NSA can allegedly intercept anything off ECHELON from AU/UK/Canada/NZ without the natives knowing)
That way it would actually be legal.
From the sounds of it, the police went to the GCSB and the GCSB went "sure!" instead of nudging the NSA and having them do it then pass it through the FBI->NZ Police.

The NSA cooperate with the FBI? Not very likely lol. There is a whole separate department for that created after they were not talking to each other and 9/11 slipped through.

They would especially not prioritise a case like this with little national security interest except that defined by a hollywood lawyer. The NSA would have told them to bugger off.

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#693490 29-Sep-2012 22:21

Sadly all to true. It's a quasi religious ideology, and like any religion it's tenets have to be accepted at face value and never questioned. Therefore any counter evidence is dismissed.

The whole system has been explored in various university studies, and there are related studies that are quite interesting.

LOL and Labour supporters are NEVER one sided or blind to the fault of their party correct?

oxnsox

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#693491 29-Sep-2012 22:21

kyhwana2:
gzt: The police were investigating already. The real question is how did the GCSB get involved in this?
.

What they SHOULD have done is intercepted his cell/internet traffic and passed it off to the NSA->FBI via ECHELON. (The NSA can allegedly intercept anything off ECHELON from AU/UK/Canada/NZ without the natives knowing)
That way it would actually be legal.
From the sounds of it, the police went to the GCSB and the GCSB went "sure!" instead of nudging the NSA and having them do it then pass it through the FBI->NZ Police.

That would still have been illegal as the GCSB would still have been doing the intercept

kyhwana2

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#693493 29-Sep-2012 22:29

oxnsox:
That would still have been illegal as the GCSB would still have been doing the intercept

Only if they know about it. There's a "NSA" only room/ability to intercept from any of the ECHELON nodes, so the NSA could have nodes in NZ intercept the GCSB wouldn't know anything about it.

oxnsox

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#693498 29-Sep-2012 22:49

kyhwana2:
oxnsox:?
That would still have been illegal as the GCSB would still have been doing the intercept

Only if they know about it. There's a "NSA" only room/ability to intercept from any of the ECHELON nodes, so the NSA could have nodes in NZ intercept the GCSB wouldn't know anything about it.

So are you actually suggesting....
The GCSB have a room in NZ that only NSA staff can enter. And in this way NZ based NSA staff can use NZ based hardware to intercept Kiwis, but it's not illegal because it's not being done by New Zealanders on their own citizens??

kyhwana2

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#693500 29-Sep-2012 22:56

oxnsox:
kyhwana2:
oxnsox:?
That would still have been illegal as the GCSB would still have been doing the intercept

Only if they know about it. There's a "NSA" only room/ability to intercept from any of the ECHELON nodes, so the NSA could have nodes in NZ intercept the GCSB wouldn't know anything about it.

So are you actually suggesting....
The GCSB have a room in NZ that only NSA staff can enter. And in this way NZ based NSA staff can use NZ based hardware to intercept Kiwis, but it's not illegal because it's not being done by New Zealanders on their own citizens??

Yes.
(It might not even be a "room", but software/firewalls)
Or even US based NSA staff.

I shall have to look it up again, i'm pretty sure ECHELON is capable of that.
See http://www.nsawatch.org/echelonfaq.html

"Each of the five centres supply "dictionaries" to the other four of keywords, phrases, people and places to "tag" and the tagged intercept is forwarded straight to the requesting country."

The NSA can throw "Kim dotcom" into a dictionary (Well, anything associated with him, especially in NZ) and they'll get anything picked up in NZ shunted to them in the US, that they can then pass to the FBI.

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#693501 29-Sep-2012 22:57

Whoa the glare off all the tin foil hats in here makes my eyes water.

I hardly think our spies are rushing around listening to us all. Nor do I think its part of a secret National agenda lol

Linuxluver

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#693512 29-Sep-2012 23:30

mattRSK: The guy is a criminal anyway, no idea how he got residency in the first place. Now he has brought all this baggage with him. Public seems to love him though.

You appear to not know much about the case.

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#693514 29-Sep-2012 23:32

TheUngeek: Whoa the glare off all the tin foil hats in here makes my eyes water.

I hardly think our spies are rushing around listening to us all. Nor do I think its part of a secret National agenda lol

Then you haven't been paying attention. Before you ridicule people who have been paying attention, you might want to do some catching up.

Ever heard of Echelon? They've been listening to you for most of the past 20 years. Phone, fax and internet.

This is what Waihopai is all about. They listen to you...and the Americans get everything - in real time....for many years now.

This is not a theory. It is a proven fact and is well documented. You just haven't bumped into it before.

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#693522 30-Sep-2012 01:43

Linuxluver:
TheUngeek: Whoa the glare off all the tin foil hats in here makes my eyes water.

I hardly think our spies are rushing around listening to us all. Nor do I think its part of a secret National agenda lol

Then you haven't been paying attention. Before you ridicule people who have been paying attention, you might want to do some catching up.

Ever heard of Echelon? They've been listening to you for most of the past 20 years. Phone, fax and internet.

This is what Waihopai is all about. They listen to you...and the Americans get everything - in real time....for many years now.

This is not a theory. It is a proven fact and is well documented. You just haven't bumped into it before.

I'd be interested in some official and credible evidence to support your claims.

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