Je suis Mongrel Mob (etc)

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#1455938 23-Dec-2015 12:14

Lias:
dickytim:
Motorcycle gangs are generally thinly disguised criminal organisation.

Someones been drinking the police koolaid.

I have no issue with Motorcycle clubs, but the gangs are a bunch of thugs who go around intimidating others, it really isn't on, again why would we want these people in our country?

Rikkitic

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#1455939 23-Dec-2015 12:18

richms:

Such crazy censorship! How did it work out for the hick town that tried to ban gang patches?

Not so well but that hick town was run by a backward neanderthal. Hospitals ban gang patches. So, I think, does WINZ. So do courts and other institutions. If they can make it work, why can't a hick town?

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

alasta

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#1455944 23-Dec-2015 12:27

Rikkitic:
alasta: In civilised countries people don't get prosecuted until they commit a crime. It's a very slippery slope to suggest that people should be prosecuted because they look like they might commit a crime.

??? Have you heard of ISIS? People here and in Australia (and Europe and the USA) are now being arrested for planning/intending/thinking about joining the group, or even just flying to somewhere in the region.

I object to that just as much as I object to banning gang patches.

If you belong to, or support, ISIS then you're a dick but being a dick in itself isn't a crime.

sdav

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#1456210 23-Dec-2015 18:30

alasta:
Rikkitic:
alasta: In civilised countries people don't get prosecuted until they commit a crime. It's a very slippery slope to suggest that people should be prosecuted because they look like they might commit a crime.

??? Have you heard of ISIS? People here and in Australia (and Europe and the USA) are now being arrested for planning/intending/thinking about joining the group, or even just flying to somewhere in the region.

I object to that just as much as I object to banning gang patches.

If you belong to, or support, ISIS then you're a dick but being a dick in itself isn't a crime.

So someone thinks about harming someone, displays actions that suggest intent but are ultimately unsuccessful. Attempted murder, assault etc - Is that not a crime? Where do you draw the line? It's pretty grey right?

Geektastic

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#1456214 23-Dec-2015 18:41

kiwifidget: What's a Hobnob?

A very tasty type of biscuit.

Geektastic

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#1456215 23-Dec-2015 18:43

My point was that they hate people who are not "entitled" to wear their patches wearing them.

We can devalue them completely if we ALL wear them...

JayADee

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#1456242 23-Dec-2015 19:56

Geektastic: My point was that they hate people who are not "entitled" to wear their patches wearing them.

We can devalue them completely if we ALL wear them...

Then they'd just move on to some other symbol. Like shave half their heads. I'm not shaving half my head. Besides, you're liable to get beat up by the 'other' rival gangs!

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MikeB4

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#1456270 23-Dec-2015 20:38

JayADee:
Geektastic: My point was that they hate people who are not "entitled" to wear their patches wearing them.

We can devalue them completely if we ALL wear them...

Then they'd just move on to some other symbol. Like shave half their heads. I'm not shaving half my head. Besides, you're liable to get beat up by the 'other' rival gangs!

Hope they don't shave, medication has made my head shaven :( I don't want to look like a gang member

JimmyH

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#1456308 23-Dec-2015 21:44

Rikkitic:

??? Have you heard of ISIS? People here and in Australia (and Europe and the USA) are now being arrested for planning/intending/thinking about joining the group, or even just flying to somewhere in the region. If you think there is a slippery slope here, I would suggest to you that the avalanche is already well underway. The difference, if any, is that the one is thought crime while the other is displaying a banner. I am utterly against censorship in all forms but I am even more against morons who misuse symbols to throw their weight around. As far as I am concerned, anyone can wear anything they like, or even nothing at all, but as soon it is abused they lose their right to an uncensored existence. Freedom comes with responsibility.

Ummm.... firstly you can't both be "utterly against censorship", and also advocate jailing someone for a breach of the peace for displaying a symbol/phrase that you don't like. The two positions are totally contradictory. Secondly, freedom may indeed come with responsibility, but if you don't have free speech (including the ability to put a symbol/slogan about your beliefs on a shirt without being arrested and jailed), then you don't exactly have freedom.

It's easy to stand up for free speech when the other person is saying something you approve of. The real test is whether you still stand up for their right to speech when they are saying something you find offensive and utterly reprehensible. If you won't, then you don't really believe in free speech.

Rikkitic

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#1456341 23-Dec-2015 22:55

There is a real difference here which people seem to be overlooking. First, free speech does not exist. If you think it does, try posting some ISIS recruitment propaganda on Facebook. Or publish an essay on the joys of sex with children. Speech is only 'free' as long as it does not seriously challenge accepted values or the established order. Sure, you can yell 'F... John Key' but if people actually start trying to F him as a result of your incitement, your freedom to say that will be rapidly curtailed.

We don't live in a 'free' society. That is a myth. We do live in a reasonably tolerant one, and that is good enough for many. As soon as you get over the notion that it is 'free', though, it becomes a lot easier to comprehend the limits to that freedom. For example, if you ban gang patches, you are not heading down a slippery slope at all, because you went down that slope a long time ago. You are not creating a dangerous precedent, because it already exists. Society isn't free, speech isn't free, and you can ban anything you want without precipitating the end of the world as long as a majority agree with you.

I am in fact utterly against censorship but I also understand that there are different ways of defining it and they mainly have to do with context. In my perfect society anyone should be able to say anything. A gang member is free to tell anyone that he is a gang member. He can say it, but he cannot display it. Those are two different things. A patch is not free speech. It is an aggressive display, like openly carrying a weapon. It is an implied threat. It is against the law to utter a threat in this country. Would you say that is censorship? It could be, depending on how you define it, but most people would not see it that way because they appreciate the greater value of having such a law. I see no contradiction here.

Edited to correct loss of layout

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Dratsab

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#1456354 23-Dec-2015 23:40

tdgeek: Its a Police issue.

No, it's a social issue - but society doesn't want to deal with it so it gets pushed onto police.

dickytim

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#1456380 24-Dec-2015 06:50

Dratsab:
tdgeek: Its a Police issue.

No, it's a social issue - but society doesn't want to deal with it so it gets pushed onto police.

The Police are there to defend our society so that makes sense.

JayADee

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#1456529 24-Dec-2015 14:47

MikeB4:
JayADee:
Geektastic: My point was that they hate people who are not "entitled" to wear their patches wearing them.

We can devalue them completely if we ALL wear them...

Then they'd just move on to some other symbol. Like shave half their heads. I'm not shaving half my head. Besides, you're liable to get beat up by the 'other' rival gangs!

Hope they don't shave, medication has made my head shaven :( I don't want to look like a gang member

Shaved head is sexy in a man. Bet you look cool.