Taubin:

... So either you didn't see what you thought you saw, or it's being made up (or more likely, you've read about it on some news agency and are repeating it here...

BarTender:

 

And this is where I disagree with you. Do you mean regular people who lock away their guns in a safe / secure lock box ensuring that the gun isn't loaded and the ammunition is stored securely in a different location to the gun itself? Or those that leave a loaded weapon in their handbag, bed side table or elsewhere around their house / car within easy reach of a child? I've struggled to find the research where the mere ownership of a gun significantly increased your chance for being shot (normally with your own gun)

 

 

 

I personally never had any children living in, or even visiting my house when I lived in the US. I also never left a gun of any form laying around anywhere that wasn't locked up. I did have a single handgun that was loaded within reach of my bedside, however it was locked in a secured safe, with a combination lock. I also a lot of times had one loaded on my person. However, I was also licensed to do so and had proper training. I fully agree there are a lot of idiots out there that should never own a firearm, even in the states. I was taught proper gun safety at a young age (6 or 7). No one I personally know ever left their firearms just laying around, loaded or not. Every firearm I've ever come in contact with, I've treated as though it was loaded, even if I had just watched it be unloaded and made "safe". 

I've never seen verifiable facts that just owning a firearm causes more deaths or increases the chances of being shot. I guess a gun being around increases the chance just by being there, however, I've handed thousands of firearms throughout my years, and have never been shot, nor has anyone I know. 

So I guess when I said "regular people" I meant people like myself and those I've had contact with. That treat firearms as the dangerous items they are. That treat them as though they are loaded at all times (even if they just cleared it and made it "safe"). That have respect for what they are, and what they are capable of, and don't leave them laying around like they would a phone. 

I know it's a hot topic issue, and I generally don't talk about it much, especially on the internet. But the amount of misinformation being told as fact was (is) astounding. 

Taubin:

 

 

 

[snip]I know it's a hot topic issue, and I generally don't talk about it much, especially on the internet. But the amount of misinformation being told as fact was (is) astounding. 

 

[offtopic] Yeah, I know what you mean. The number of armchair network engineers on here with experience in ISP networks that know a LOT more than myself or other engineers on here is incredible, literally :-) [/offtopic]

Cheers - N

kingdragonfly:
This was during the 1980's. I remember my 16 year old friend took a once a year inventory of his guns, and it literally covered every square inch of his bedroom.

Also I was with him when he bought a number of guns without a cooling down period. It seems the colour of his skin made the difference.

He's regularly made pipe-bombs. I remember the book "anarchist cookbook" was not only popular in the gun-show, a guide to making improvised explosives, but was popular in our high-school!!!

I remember several gun deals going down inside our school, for example, I literally saw a 44 magnum pulled out of a fellow student's locker, and sold for cash; No paperwork.

We'd going out shooting at illegal gun ranges, and idiots would show up with their fully automatic rifles, and blow through about a hundred dollars ammo in seconds.

EVERYONE at his father's business was armed to the teeth. My friend would carry a 38 with tracer rounds (hot phosphorus injection), which I know is illegal.

Lastly talking about law enforcement in Alabama, I was there when an police officer told his father if anyone ever tried to rob him, just shoot the "n" word, drag him outside; they'd ignore the blood trail.

So while law enforcement would like to say "oh, it's just a few bad apples", or "you're making it up", I know first-hand the difference between NRA version of the US, and the actual reality.

I owned my first rifle before 16, as a lot of kids in the US do. Most kids get their first .22 rifle for hunting squirrel and other small game at a young age. Having "literally every squre inch of his bedroom covered in firearms" at 16, is extremely excessive. And even if true (I am having a very hard time believing it) does not make him a bad person. But it does very much make him the exception. 

The anarchist cookbook, yes, sold at every single gun show I've ever been to, usually with the worthless military surplus items. Most everything in most of the versions of that book are completely useless. In fact, if you google search, you'll probably find about 20 different versions right here online! I won't deny that your friend probably did make what he called "pipe-bombs" and they probably even went boom, in fact I would bet most kids in the US that grew up outside of big cities did the same. 99.9% of them were completely useless and just made a large boom. 

If there were gun deals going down at school, and you didn't report it, then you are just as at fault. Having a firearm within 200 feet of any school in the US is a federal offense. Also, how do you know it was a .44 magnum? Most revolvers look the same especially from a distance. My .22 revolver looked just like my .357 revolver did, and unless you were looking at them very closely, and knew them quite well, you wouldn't know the difference from a distance of more than 2 feet. 

"Illegal gun ranges" such as? Someones back yard? That's not illegal in most places. People showing up with "fully automatic rifles" is again, very doubtful to say the least. They are incredibly expensive to buy (Most are well over $50,000 US for the "cheap" ones). No one is just going to show up at a "illegal gun range" with one and blow through a bunch of ammo. 

A lot of places have people "armed to the teeth" in the US. There are millions of responsible gun owners in the US who have never had any trouble at all. And tracer rounds are not illegal at all. You can buy them right online, they are quite fun actually! And no more dangerous than regular ammunition. Unless you happen to be shooting them into dry grass or other very flammable material. That said, a lot of gun ranges ban them, due to fire risk. 

If the law enforcement there was like that, (again I doubt it but, I guess it's possible) the Attorney General would love to have a chat with you about them, as would the Alabama State Police. Those officers would be in jail quite quickly. 

I'm not sure what you mean about the "NRA version of the US and the actual reality" but I lived in the US for most of my life, well over 30 years and all of the things you have mentioned so far are quite far fetched. 

There is quite a bit of misinformation in your posts that you are saying as though they are facts. Especially things like saying anyone in the US can buy a grenade launcher, tracer rounds are illegal, etc... Please look into things like this before continuing to spread misinformation. I fully understand a lot of people are anti-gun, and that's totally okay. I'm personally not, and don't mind having a civil debate about it, however, making up facts and misinformation, is not the way to go about it. 

IMO almost the entire problem in the USA is handguns - not rifles, shotguns etc.

IIRC Canada had higher gun ownership rates than the USA, but much lower gun crime, murder rate comparable with NZ.

Apart from "sport" (target shooting), handguns have one main purpose - which is to kill people.  That's obviously also true of some military rifles, but OTOH when I started hunting I used an ex-military rifle.  Second part to it is that it's hard to conceal and carry a rifle or shotgun, hence the popular use in NZ in NZ where handguns weren't easily available of sawn-off guns and rifles by gangs and other thugs.

There's no reason to carry a concealed a weapon unless your intent is to use it to shoot people.

As well as the 12 thousand or so murders annually using handguns in the USA, I believe that there are 30,000 or so suicides by (mainly hand) gun.  They might top themselves some other way if guns weren't available, but having a handgun makes it so easy - also it's kind of a ritualised suicide procedure in the US psyche, portrayed in popular culture frequently.

The US is country where the horse has bolted on firearms.  It's a terrible situation, but I don't think there is any going back.  They could have, years ago considered what the words 'well regulated militia' mean from regulation and organisation perspective.   A militia being an organised group with chain of command (like the national guard).  Too late now though.  Far too many guns in the hands of criminals.  If I lived there I would arm myself too.

NZ is not like that, so here I have only owned firearms for sporting and agricultural purposes. They have always been stored in a way that precludes accessing them quickly.

Talkiet:

 

According to the most conservative figures I could find, US Firearm related death rate per 100k popn is ten times higher than NZ. Sure, it's not like people are dying on every corner, every day, but it's AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE worse than here, and many other similarly developed countries.

 

There are countries with worse rates though... Honduras, Swaziland, Colombia, Brazil, Panama and a few others.

 

Adherence to the current rules doesn't make the whole situation deplorably sad - but the stats don't lie, the US is the most dangerous place for gun related deaths in the developed world. Even if you want to argue the term 'developed' it's still among the very worst...

 

As far as I can tell, the most common justification for people having a handgun is because others have handguns. We did that with nuclear weapons once (and might do again!)...

 

 

 

Cheers - N

 

 

 

The problem with that is that we do not know how many of those people died committing criminal acts.

Personally I have no issue at all with criminals getting shot when acting outside the law, so I would want those numbers deducted from the total. Ditto criminals shooting each other.

Fred99:

 

IMO almost the entire problem in the USA is handguns - not rifles, shotguns etc.

 

IIRC Canada had higher gun ownership rates than the USA, but much lower gun crime, murder rate comparable with NZ.

 

Apart from "sport" (target shooting), handguns have one main purpose - which is to kill people.  That's obviously also true of some military rifles, but OTOH when I started hunting I used an ex-military rifle.  Second part to it is that it's hard to conceal and carry a rifle or shotgun, hence the popular use in NZ in NZ where handguns weren't easily available of sawn-off guns and rifles by gangs and other thugs.

 

There's no reason to carry a concealed a weapon unless your intent is to use it to shoot people.

 

As well as the 12 thousand or so murders annually using handguns in the USA, I believe that there are 30,000 or so suicides by (mainly hand) gun.  They might top themselves some other way if guns weren't available, but having a handgun makes it so easy - also it's kind of a ritualised suicide procedure in the US psyche, portrayed in popular culture frequently.

 

Switzerland is another example. Gun ownership rates there are very high indeed - the third highest per capita in the world (compared to NZ which is 22nd) but you rarely hear of Swiss people going on gun rampages.

Some of these things are down to the character and nature of a particular country's population. There are things in NZ that cause problems they do not cause elsewhere, for example. The only real variable is the nature of the society.

EDIT: Americans also have many excellent facilities to practice shooting safely, as well as many courses to train them in doing so. I shot at this excellent range last year: I have been shooting since I was 10 years old and got my first air rifle and in all that time, this is easily the finest facility I have ever used. The attached gun shop was astonishing and the cost of using the range was US$25 for the day! I had to provide my NZ passport as ID to use it.

kingdragonfly: Lastly talking about law enforcement in Alabama, I was there when an police officer told his father if anyone ever tried to rob him, just shoot the "n" word, drag him outside; they'd ignore the blood trail.

AFAIK, its better (from the point of view of using self-defence as a legal defence) to shoot someone *inside* your house or place of business than outside. So the above doesn't ring true to me.

Geektastic:
Switzerland is another example. Gun ownership rates there are very high indeed - the third highest per capita in the world (compared to NZ which is 22nd) but you rarely hear of Swiss people going on gun rampages.

 

 

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/switzerlands-gun-laws-are-a-red-herring-2012-12?r=US&IR=T

As opposed to the US, where it appears that there's a mutual positive reinforcement between gun ownership and macho self-image. And fear of becoming a victim of crime, and lack of confidence in the police or anyone else to prevent that.

frankv:

kingdragonfly: Lastly talking about law enforcement in Alabama, I was there when an police officer told his father if anyone ever tried to rob him, just shoot the "n" word, drag him outside; they'd ignore the blood trail.

AFAIK, its better (from the point of view of using self-defence as a legal defence) to shoot someone *inside* your house or place of business than outside. So the above doesn't ring true to me.

 

Taubin:

 

kingdragonfly:
This was during the 1980's. I remember my 16 year old friend took a once a year inventory of his guns, and it literally covered every square inch of his bedroom.

Also I was with him when he bought a number of guns without a cooling down period. It seems the colour of his skin made the difference.

He's regularly made pipe-bombs. I remember the book "anarchist cookbook" was not only popular in the gun-show, a guide to making improvised explosives, but was popular in our high-school!!!

I remember several gun deals going down inside our school, for example, I literally saw a 44 magnum pulled out of a fellow student's locker, and sold for cash; No paperwork.

We'd going out shooting at illegal gun ranges, and idiots would show up with their fully automatic rifles, and blow through about a hundred dollars ammo in seconds.

EVERYONE at his father's business was armed to the teeth. My friend would carry a 38 with tracer rounds (hot phosphorus injection), which I know is illegal.

Lastly talking about law enforcement in Alabama, I was there when an police officer told his father if anyone ever tried to rob him, just shoot the "n" word, drag him outside; they'd ignore the blood trail.

So while law enforcement would like to say "oh, it's just a few bad apples", or "you're making it up", I know first-hand the difference between NRA version of the US, and the actual reality.

 

 

 

I owned my first rifle before 16, as a lot of kids in the US do. Most kids get their first .22 rifle for hunting squirrel and other small game at a young age. Having "literally every squre inch of his bedroom covered in firearms" at 16, is extremely excessive. And even if true (I am having a very hard time believing it) does not make him a bad person. But it does very much make him the exception. 

 

The anarchist cookbook, yes, sold at every single gun show I've ever been to, usually with the worthless military surplus items. Most everything in most of the versions of that book are completely useless. In fact, if you google search, you'll probably find about 20 different versions right here online! I won't deny that your friend probably did make what he called "pipe-bombs" and they probably even went boom, in fact I would bet most kids in the US that grew up outside of big cities did the same. 99.9% of them were completely useless and just made a large boom. 

 

If there were gun deals going down at school, and you didn't report it, then you are just as at fault. Having a firearm within 200 feet of any school in the US is a federal offense. Also, how do you know it was a .44 magnum? Most revolvers look the same especially from a distance. My .22 revolver looked just like my .357 revolver did, and unless you were looking at them very closely, and knew them quite well, you wouldn't know the difference from a distance of more than 2 feet. 

 

"Illegal gun ranges" such as? Someones back yard? That's not illegal in most places. People showing up with "fully automatic rifles" is again, very doubtful to say the least. They are incredibly expensive to buy (Most are well over $50,000 US for the "cheap" ones). No one is just going to show up at a "illegal gun range" with one and blow through a bunch of ammo. 

 

A lot of places have people "armed to the teeth" in the US. There are millions of responsible gun owners in the US who have never had any trouble at all. And tracer rounds are not illegal at all. You can buy them right online, they are quite fun actually! And no more dangerous than regular ammunition. Unless you happen to be shooting them into dry grass or other very flammable material. That said, a lot of gun ranges ban them, due to fire risk. 

 

If the law enforcement there was like that, (again I doubt it but, I guess it's possible) the Attorney General would love to have a chat with you about them, as would the Alabama State Police. Those officers would be in jail quite quickly. 

 

I'm not sure what you mean about the "NRA version of the US and the actual reality" but I lived in the US for most of my life, well over 30 years and all of the things you have mentioned so far are quite far fetched. 

 

There is quite a bit of misinformation in your posts that you are saying as though they are facts. Especially things like saying anyone in the US can buy a grenade launcher, tracer rounds are illegal, etc... Please look into things like this before continuing to spread misinformation. I fully understand a lot of people are anti-gun, and that's totally okay. I'm personally not, and don't mind having a civil debate about it, however, making up facts and misinformation, is not the way to go about it. 

 

Friend of mine moved back here from the USA after 10 years in Arkansas. He had over 300 guns to choose from when deciding which ones to bring and which ones to leave with family there; he whittled it down to about 100 that came here.

To be fair, many of his are collector's pieces bought as investments rather than users.