Prison Numbers, What To Do?

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#2064093 28-Jul-2018 13:41

vexxxboy:
i must be in the minority but locking up people for sake of making other people feel better is a waste of time and doesnt tackle the problem of rising crime,. Most crime is done buy the same people over and over again and locking them up again and again isnt working, you only have to look at Norway to see how it could be handled and the benefits to all society it provides , it will never happen here but it should .

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/why-norways-prison-system-is-so-successful-2014-12?r=US&IR=T

It's letting them out again and again that isn't working, not locking them up....

insane

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#2064095 28-Jul-2018 13:54

It's all a vicious cycle, and one also perpetuated by greater wealth divide.

I'm all for accountability, but believe that imprisonment without proper rehabilitation and skills training is hopeless in the long term. And I don't mean rehabilitation programmes just to tick prison contract deliverables, I'm talking deliverables with KPIs related to lasting reform and true re-introduction into society.

Having said that, we the population also have a right to be safe, so build more prisons if they are needed until offending rates are tackled through community engagement programmes to prevent serious offending in the first place.

gregmcc

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#2064096 28-Jul-2018 13:58

pctek:

Stop jailing people for drug use.

Supply/manufacture is another thing, but being an addict?

Bring back the death penalty. Serial killers and child harmers are not curable.

Realise, that as the population increases so does the percentage of criminals.

at what population value does the percentage become 100%?

nunz

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#2064241 28-Jul-2018 17:06

pctek:

...

Realise, that as the population increases so does the percentage of criminals.

Um why? The numbers increase but the percentage should remain the same unless there are other factors than pure population increase.

nunz

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#2064281 28-Jul-2018 17:30

insane:

It's all a vicious cycle, and one also perpetuated by greater wealth divide.

I'm all for accountability, but believe that imprisonment without proper rehabilitation and skills training is hopeless in the long term. And I don't mean rehabilitation programmes just to tick prison contract deliverables, I'm talking deliverables with KPIs related to lasting reform and true re-introduction into society.

Having said that, we the population also have a right to be safe, so build more prisons if they are needed until offending rates are tackled through community engagement programmes to prevent serious offending in the first place.

The wealth divide isn't the issue. That's saying the poor are dishonest. Poverty may increase crime (to feed families) but the rich are not less honest than the mega rich - which is an example of a wealth divide. In fact it is arguable the mega rich are more dishonest but have the wealth to circumvent prosecution.

There has been some interesting studies done recently. One is around the idea that there are more Maori in prison because they are from a warrior race that hasn't adjusted to civilized society. It was challenged by the statistics that something like 100,000 maori kids were taken off their families and placed in foster care and something like 50% or more were sexually or otherwise abused. That makes for one hell of a lot of disenfranchised, mentally ill, angry maori - who are about the right age to be prison stats or have had kids who are prison stats.

Stats for prison also show:

High mentally ill percentage
High illiteracy percentage
High violent backgrounds percentage
High autism /adhd and similar

Poverty leads to some of those things but more probably those things lead to poverty. As peoples lives unravel their socio-economic prospects slide and they end up unemployed / employable, with bad housing and in dangerous situations - leading to crime.

Studies also show that non whites get charged more often and with heavier sentences than whites doing the same thing.

More prisons is not the answer - they are an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. We need to sort out the issues before people get there.

Harsher deterrents dont work. 3 strikes, death penalty and some pretty awful conditions in USA don't stop things happening. In fact if you face 3rd strike or death penalty you are more likely to kill violently to cover your tracks, on even less violent crimes like robbery, to make sure you aren't caught. People are stupid on the whole, they often dont think when they desire something and do stuff hoping to get away with it. Smoking is only one easy example of that mentality.

Having said that - there are a few people i would be a lot happier to see dead and buried - and even with the best Christian hope behind it, there are some who are irredeemable. Giving them a chance might sound nice but rarely works out for some of the more psychopathic types - who go on to destroy lives when given more chances. If we are going to do preventative detention then we need to do preventative detention and not pretend it is rehabilitative. Its the more politically correct and expensive answer to a $1 bullet and a grave.

There are a growing number of rehabilitative programs making a big difference in Nz prisons. Building skills, literacy programs, job skills, anger management. The big trick is to continue the support (which is lacking) post release, for the next year or two (or more) for those at risk of re-offending as they go back to the same situations. 12 Stepping programs are one example but so is finding meaningful work opportunities and reintegration with healthy communities.

In the end we also need to look at the statistics for how people are not incarcerated for stuff - like rugby players, rich folks, famous people and white collar crime.

Further more we need to review what prison is for. I know a lawyer who embezzaled around $1million. He got sent to prison for a number of years - but he knew he had done wrong and at the age of 78 was unlikely to be able to repeat the crime. Prison was pure revenge - not rehabilitative and not a deterrent and not a way to protect society. There are surely better options - which might also give folks the chance make restitution. Depriving a person of their freedom with no outcome for society, except to pay high costs of removing them makes no sense.

Restitution needs to be part of the answer - not leaving someone at home to play play station and shag their missues at tax payers expense. Maybe up at 6, report to work, do stuff of benefit to society, learning courses, etc etc. The devil makes work for idle hands - so keep em busy and keep them of benefit to others.

Batman

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#2064611 29-Jul-2018 15:50

Linux:

Geektastic: Build more prisons.

So you want hard working tax payers to build more prisons to house more criminals?

I would rather spend the money on Police , Nurses , Teachers ETC..... not to house low lifes

John

Make them build roads.

Lastman

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#2064625 29-Jul-2018 16:46

pctek:
Stop jailing people for drug use.

Supply/manufacture is another thing, but being an addict?

In general, we are not jailing people for drug use but drug related crime, theft, violence etc and supply lines.

Perhaps the answer is legalisation but we need to be able to manage the flow on effects such as increased drugs in the workplace and driving.

In the Norway example, the article praises the justice system but, clearly, it is that Norwegian society is not generating the proportion of criminals that we do.

A lot of our prison population is Maori, a feature which is not present in a society like Norway.

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ANglEAUT

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#2064712 29-Jul-2018 22:42

nunz: ... they are an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. We need to sort out the issues before people get there. ...

Amen!

nunz: ... report to work, do stuff of benefit to society, learning courses, etc etc ...

conflicts with

scuwp: ... but we are namby pamby PC whimps.

Truly forcing people to do something can be very difficult. In my experience it comes down to either shaming them based on the current morals of society or whips & chains. W&C didn't work out to well previously. These days, in our heterogeneous world, we also have many different beliefs and morals which makes it harder to shame somebody. Can we find an acceptable alternative at a cost society is willing to pay?

Please keep this GZ community vibrant by contributing in a constructive & respectful manner.

gzt

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#2064715 29-Jul-2018 22:54

IcI: Can we find an acceptable alternative at a cost society is willing to pay?

Wages?

jarledb

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#2064728 30-Jul-2018 02:40

Lastman:

In the Norway example, the article praises the justice system but, clearly, it is that Norwegian society is not generating the proportion of criminals that we do.

I would think the main difference is that Norway is a country where poor people are way better off than in NZ. The benefits are higher and more livable. New Zealand is a harsher country to live in if you are poor.

Norway also have a prison system focused on rehabilitation instead of punishment, so you are probably more likely not to be a re-offender after having been in prison.

A lot of our prison population is Maori, a feature which is not present in a society like Norway.

You are correct that the prison population in Norway does not consist of a lot of Maori.

It is however over represented by immigrants.

I think both issues have to do with the level of powerty in those groups, more than anything else.

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Lastman

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#2064747 30-Jul-2018 07:23

I agree to some extent. My point is punters tend to focus on the criminal justice system and the prison system rather than analysing the causes in wider society.

Dulouz

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#2064751 30-Jul-2018 07:29

Racial and cultural differences are the elephant in the room which is contributing to inmate growth. While on the surface we might like to claim we are a multicultural paradise there is a real disconnect between some racial groups and the general society. The vast majority of inmates are positively anti-social and do not see themselves as part of society due to racial and cultural differences.

Amanon

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#2064758 30-Jul-2018 07:56

I take it NZ does not have much of a rehabilitation system? You would think that an inmate is the chief driver behind rehabilitation rather than being told to do so.

surfisup1000

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#2064768 30-Jul-2018 08:07

pctek:

Stop jailing people for drug use.

They don't, I doubt there are many in prison for the reason of drug addiction.

Our jails are actually filled with people who have committed with nasty crimes.

The guy that nearly killed barry sopers son was only given home detention.

MileHighKiwi

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#2064769 30-Jul-2018 08:23

Its quite difficult to get jailed in NZ. The average inmate has more than 30 convictions before they are jailed, most of these offenses relate to violent crime. Kiwiblog profiled a number of 'second strikers' recently and these guys are very bad people, they are beyond rehabilitation. Granny bashers and rapists, sexual assaults, murder etc....

I want people to have the opportunity at reform but where do you draw the line? 5 offence? 15? 40?

Do we want people like this on the street? You can argue cultural and racial oppression but the reality is he will not change and I feel much safer having people like this away from the public https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2018/06/meet_a_second_striker_4.html

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