Child discipline and the anti smacking law

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#2382216 28-Dec-2019 14:42

gbwelly:

In the decades I have been a parent, there has never been a single situation where striking the child would have in any way improved the situation. Anyone who's child has got to the point where they cannot be stopped from doing something without physically striking them is frankly a failure as a parent. People, just give your children the same level of respect you would a person on the street. i.e don't hit them. I don't know why I have even bothered to reply, this thread shouldn't even exist. It's been 12 years, let it go.

To be fair, decades of parenting or otherwise, that is a very easy statement to make when you've only raised your own children. Different methods of discipline work to varying degrees on different people, and I think its very naive to think that some children wouldn't respond best to being smacked on the bum in a controlled manner.

Rikkitic

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#2382222 28-Dec-2019 15:10

I am not a parent but I was close to small children for several years. I don't believe in physical violence of any kind and I always found that it was possible to reason with them with patience and the right approach. In my opinion the only thing smacking teaches is that you can get what you want by bashing people smaller than you.

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D.W

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#2382228 28-Dec-2019 15:20

Rikkitic:

I am not a parent but I was close to small children for several years. I don't believe in physical violence of any kind and I always found that it was possible to reason with them with patience and the right approach. In my opinion the only thing smacking teaches is that you can get what you want by bashing people smaller than you.

Assuming you talk to your children, discipline and teaching children how they get what they want are two very different things. If you replaced smacking with another method such as time out (e.g. alone time in their rooms), you'd never say "the only thing that time out teaches is that you can get what you want by sending people to their room".

Rikkitic

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#2382229 28-Dec-2019 15:26

D.W:

Rikkitic:

I am not a parent but I was close to small children for several years. I don't believe in physical violence of any kind and I always found that it was possible to reason with them with patience and the right approach. In my opinion the only thing smacking teaches is that you can get what you want by bashing people smaller than you.

Assuming you talk to your children, discipline and teaching children how they get what they want are two very different things. If you replaced smacking with another method such as time out (e.g. alone time in their rooms), you'd never say "the only thing that time out teaches is that you can get what you want by sending people to their room".

Nah, it just teaches that you can get what you want by putting less powerful people in prison.

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FineWine

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#2382252 28-Dec-2019 16:51

Boundaries Boundaries Boundaries - all start from the day you pop out. e.g. controlled crying or controlled comforting. Then as they grow older into pre-school age, introducing the idea of responsibility and 'think before you do & say' because actions & responsibilities = consequences.

Yes I had corporal punishment as a child and into early teens as I went to a C of E boarding school but I probably would have been diagnosed as ADHD if that diagnosis had been around back then. But punishment was always accompanied by an explanation of why actions & responsibilities = consequences. But then authorities and parents go too far. E.G. they remove that excellent climbing tree from the play ground. Children and adults do learn, mostly, from mistakes. It is those that don't learn you have to worry about. The greatest teacher is history.

I have seen & heard too many parents smack and say no without explanations. A lot of the times it was because that was the way they were brought up so we have the vicious circle. Or we have parents who do not want children to go through what they went through and again the pendulum goes to far.

Nobody can be "Leave it to Beaver" or "Family Ties" parents 100% of the time. Parenting itself is a learning curve whether it is one child or 11 children, because each child is different but with each additional child a parent becomes that little more relaxed and chilled out.

But it all starts with Boundaries.

Yea I know I posted this here as well. Things that you hate about being a parent

Whilst the difficult we can do immediately, the impossible takes a bit longer. However, miracles you will have to wait for.

dafman

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#2382256 28-Dec-2019 17:10

FineWine:
Boundaries Boundaries Boundaries - all start from the day you pop out. e.g. controlled crying or controlled comforting. Then as they grow older into pre-school age, introducing the idea of responsibility and 'think before you do & say' because actions & responsibilities = consequences.

Yes I had corporal punishment as a child and into early teens as I went to a C of E boarding school but I probably would have been diagnosed as ADHD if that diagnosis had been around back then. But punishment was always accompanied by an explanation of why actions & responsibilities = consequences. But then authorities and parents go too far. E.G. they remove that excellent climbing tree from the play ground. Children and adults do learn, mostly, from mistakes. It is those that don't learn you have to worry about. The greatest teacher is history.

I have seen & heard too many parents smack and say no without explanations. A lot of the times it was because that was the way they were brought up so we have the vicious circle. Or we have parents who do not want children to go through what they went through and again the pendulum goes to far.

Nobody can be "Leave it to Beaver" or "Family Ties" parents 100% of the time. Parenting itself is a learning curve whether it is one child or 11 children, because each child is different but with each additional child a parent becomes that little more relaxed and chilled out.

But it all starts with Boundaries.

Yea I know I posted this here as well. Things that you hate about being a parent

So, if a husband bashes his wife, but then takes time out to explain to her why he did it, that's so much better?
Sorry, I don't want to appear flippant, I appreciate the sentiment and thought you put into your post. It's just that under no circumstances do I consider violence as OK.

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FineWine

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#2382258 28-Dec-2019 17:53

FineWine:

But punishment was always accompanied by an explanation of why actions & responsibilities = consequences

dafman:
So, if a husband bashes his wife, but then takes time out to explain to her why he did it, that's so much better?
Sorry, I don't want to appear flippant, I appreciate the sentiment and thought you put into your post. It's just that under no circumstances do I consider violence as OK.

No that is not what I said or meant to imply.

Perhaps I should have said ANY punishment..... I also received 'black marks' and privilege removal. I agree with you that violence of any sort, except in self defence, is not acceptable.

Violence is never an alternative to dialogue.

Whilst the difficult we can do immediately, the impossible takes a bit longer. However, miracles you will have to wait for.

Rikkitic

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#2382259 28-Dec-2019 18:00

Agree totally with above. Violence of any kind, even mild violence, is the last resort of the inarticulate.

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Handle9

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#2382266 28-Dec-2019 18:21

I have no idea why discipline is related to violence. I don't hit my kids and I don't need to hit my kids to discipline them. My kids understand boundaries and respect.

Hitting is more about the parent feeling better rather than anything else.

nunz

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#2382269 28-Dec-2019 18:39

My 2c on the above.

1 - The original posts never mentioned religion, and as far as I am aware the only mention of religion has been to vilify Christians or theists - or similar. Its funny how those who are a-theist or agnostic are often the first to light up the God topic :) BTW find me a verse where God says to abuse kids.

2 - Some of the posts above are falling into the same category that the original debates did - and making this law about smacking - when it is not - its about child abuse. Smacking and child abuse are two very different things.

3 - Smacking the wife -I'm told some like a good spanking but have yet to find any who like being abused. There is a difference folks.

Most of the arguments against the anti smacking law have been its lack of definition and protection for those who are applying reasonable force. And yes, there are times for reasonable force - we allow it in our police, we allow it in bouncers and we allow it in those working with the psychiatricly ill and the demented. Physical force does not have to equal smacking. Physical force can equal restraint, removal, resistance and yes - good old fashioned smacking. All are criminalized under this law.

The reason for being of the AS law was to prevent abuse. It has patently failed to do that. End of story. It has also criminalized those who are not being abusive. While you may or may not agree with smacking / light physical discipline, at the end of the day the AS law was not about that - it was about abuse.

The AS law has stopped appropriate physical disciplines being used. A grandmother prosecuted for grabbing her grand-son by the collar and dragging him back off the road, away from traffic. I've done the same thing. There are times where physical discipline is appropriate as there is no time for talking or discussion.

I am also intrigued by the idea that you can reason with young children. I find its often impossible to reason with supposedly fully formed adults but at 1, 2, 3 years old there is no such thing as reason.

Bribery and corruption may work - that's enticement not reason. Bribery teaches a person that they can get something, by displaying inappropriate behaviors and then only do what it is they should actually have done as a normal expected behaviour, after getting rewarded. I do my best not to reward my children for doing what is expected and appropriate behavior and save that for (sometimes ) when they actually do something exceptional / or when I feel like reminding them they are loved no matter what.

My children have reasonable esteem as they learned to appreciate their own accomplishments, not perform like a trained seal. Ive seen some of the reward systems at work - and it fails to build inner character. Self esteem - comes from the self. Self control comes from the self, not the outer. Rewards and bribery are outer.

My daughter has a form of autism that means reason, repetition, training, normally dont work. We have had huge problems with her stealing stuff - then bare faced lying about it. We need to have a reasonable assurance that we can trust what she says at some level. So when important items in the house went missing, and we asked her about it - she lied to us. She was told the consequence of lying , given an opportunity to 'fess up and she didn't take it. Items were under her bed - along with a ton of other contraband / stolen goods. This behaviour has been something we have tried to curb and sort out for months/ years.

This time we took a physical discipline route immediately. She lost computer time for a week, lost device access, lost toy access, lost watching a shared movie with the family and yes, there were physical consequences. I also deliberately raised my voice to unpleasant decibels and gave her the bollocking of a life time. I am not happy or proud I did that but after all else failed went back to basic deterrence - deliberately and systematically.

Yesterday we were presented with a similar issue - things missing, and when she was asked she bared faced lied. I reminded her of the last consequence, reminded her she had one more opportunity to make this right by being truthful and if she didn't the same consequences would befall her. She fessed up. She knows we aren't happy, she had to replace what she stole, but we now have a baseline of consequence we can reference going forward. We also have a way of dialoging and an assurance we can actually keep her safe because there is a limit she wont go past. We have tried every non physical and proactive discipline known to The Nanny, Dr Spock and goodness knows who else. Reason fails but consequence / level one avoidance of pain is a very strong foundation if all else fails.

Some would say it was abusive of me to raise my voice, punish so heavily by removal of wants and physically discipline. I say it would be abusive of me to fail to provide my daughter with the safety backstop that keeps her safe. Letting her continue her merry way has dire long term consequences and a little 'pain' now beats a life time of regret and pain later.

I've been to all those courses, I was a behaviour specialist teacher - and I know that behaviourism (the underlaying philosphy that drives most parenting courses) fails - lots. Ive seen parents vilified as they were unable to talk their child through a panic attack. I dont know anyone who can pursue reason in the middle of a full on panic attack - much less a child. Reason, training, talking are useless when there is sensory overload. Picking up that kid, restraining them from hurting themselves or others, putting something more unpleasant in place than the panic attack to stop them harming self and others works (cold water to shock them out of a self harming behaviour).

Not everyone can be reasoned with. No one can be reasoned with all the time. There is a need for physicality in discipline and in parenting. Dont believe me? Then scrap the jails, police etc and see how long reason works as an only method of control.

The AS law has failed its primary goal and as abuse has risen - it may be possible is causing harm to kids, as well as the adults it has vilified. That's statistically verifiable with prosecution records and hospital admissions. Hard facts - not statistics.

nunz

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#2382271 28-Dec-2019 18:48

Handle9: I have no idea why discipline is related to violence. I don't hit my kids and I don't need to hit my kids to discipline them. My kids understand boundaries and respect.

Hitting is more about the parent feeling better rather than anything else.

My autistic son doesn't reason well. He's bright but continues to do behaviours that are dangerous to others and no amount of reason, talking or training has worked.

The other day he leaned on me again (for the fifth or sixth time in under 30 minutes) and again failed to be cognescent of my safety or others. I am able to physically withstand a growing teen leaning on me - but my parents in law and my parents are getting frailer - and he wont stop this behaviour.

So this time I employed a small martial arts move, where I didn't touch him but got out of the way in such a fashion that he crashed onto the wooden floor. Yes it hurt - but he didn't do it again for the whole session. No bruises, no breaks, in fact I didn't even touch him. Thankfully the other adults there know him and actually smiled at my response as they had watched me try to deal with it. Physical discipline - worked.

Differnt kids react in different ways. I'm glad you can talk to yours - mine need a different approach at times. And no - I never feel good about doing things like I did - but it needed doing.

Being a parent is about doing stuff you hate - because it is the right thing to do. Like the time I physically strapped him down kicking and screaming so a doctor could incise a heavily infected wound that was just short of going gangrenous. I will hurt my kids if I have to - but I never ever like it.

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dafman

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#2382294 28-Dec-2019 21:14

nunz:
BTW find me a verse where God says to abuse kids.

Prov 13:24: “He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him often.”

Prov 19:18: “Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying.”

Prov 22:15: “Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.”

Prov 23:13-14: “Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell (i.e. death).”

Prov 29:15: “The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.”

dafman

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#2382298 28-Dec-2019 21:25

nunz:

The AS law has stopped appropriate physical disciplines being used. A grandmother prosecuted for grabbing her grand-son by the collar and dragging him back off the road, away from traffic.

On the face of it, seems highly unlikely. Can you provide a link to more information on this?

dejadeadnz

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#2382327 28-Dec-2019 23:38

Rikkitic:

Agree totally with above. Violence of any kind, even mild violence, is the last resort of the inarticulate.

Yep. As expected, pretty much the usual sorts who defend any kind of physical violence on children do so by appeal to some kind of instrumental/consequentialist defence (e.g. it is effective for them as the adults). The interest of the child or the inherent dignity of the person rarely figure in the discussion.

It’s pretty scary that behind the thin facade of general reasonableness, there are still so many people exhibiting frankly prehistoric tendencies.

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#2382333 29-Dec-2019 00:47

dafman:
The god portrayed in the christian fantasy says it is not only OK, but recommended, that large adults hit small children. Given this, we absolutely need a law to protect vulnerable children from those who think all authority comes from a book written by men in an ignorant age when the world was believed to be flat.

Before the law was passed, I remember a case where parents successfully convinced a jury of their 'peers' that thrashing their child with a riding crop was OK. Thankfully, no more.

Please, can you share the verse in the Bible that says it’s fine for large adults to hit small children?

Also about the flat earth was that in the Bible too (what verse?) or just what was commonly thought at the time?

Cheers.

[EDIT] Oh I see now you’ve answered the first question above already, thanks.

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