Climate Change Thread

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#3129986 21-Sep-2023 08:18

Geektastic:

Reality is reality. Nobody is going to beggar themselves voluntarily and no politician is going to get elected on a platform of forcing them into penury.

It seems to me that there’s a gap between what technology can currently deliver and what people would like to happen when they fly to G7 meetings and Davos junkets in their private jets to decide what will happen to their charges.

Is there any actual evidence that spending money on CC will force governments into penury? In my view, it doesn't much matter what money is spent on, it will go round and round and stimulate the economy. For example, armaments aren't productive, yet large amounts are spent on them without governments going broke.

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#3129992 21-Sep-2023 08:37

And indeed the UK has pushed out a variety of dates for banning petrol and diesel cars, gas boilers and so on.

Doesn’t seem to have made the World section of the Herald yet though…

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#3129994 21-Sep-2023 08:38

frankv:
Geektastic:

Reality is reality. Nobody is going to beggar themselves voluntarily and no politician is going to get elected on a platform of forcing them into penury.

It seems to me that there’s a gap between what technology can currently deliver and what people would like to happen when they fly to G7 meetings and Davos junkets in their private jets to decide what will happen to their charges.

Is there any actual evidence that spending money on CC will force governments into penury? In my view, it doesn't much matter what money is spent on, it will go round and round and stimulate the economy. For example, armaments aren't productive, yet large amounts are spent on them without governments going broke.

It’s voters that will be forced into penury. Not governments.

SaltyNZ

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#3129999 21-Sep-2023 08:52

Geektastic:

It’s voters that will be forced into penury. Not governments.

But why would they be 'forced into penury'? Stuff wears out and has to be replaced all the time. Energy needs are growing (despite efficiency gains) all the time. You have to replace your old car eventually. You have to replace your old heater. You have to replace - and expand - your old power generation & transmission infrastructure.

There is literally no downside to saying that no new ICE vehicles can be registered after 2030, because a) if you bought a brand new one in 2023 it would be 7 years old in 2030 and you would still be able to drive it if you wanted to anyway and b) the writing is already on the wall with the huge growth in EV market share due to the simple economics of it's so much cheaper.

There is no downside to saying that all new generation must be renewable because a) you need to build new generation regardless and b) it's cheaper to install wind and solar than anything else. Granted, storage is currently an issue, but it isn't currently a world-ending problem and there are numerous solutions at various stages of maturity some or all of which will pan out before it is.

Also, all of these things create jobs, and we love jobs - jobs are what keep people off the benefit. Solar panels don't install themselves.

If voters are forced into penury it isn't because of woke. They were going to be forced into penury regardless because no matter what you replace all the current stuff with, you still have to replace it with something.

Burying your head in the sand and shouting 'lalalalalala there is no climate crisis' will force you into penury even more surely as the 3 billion-ish people who live around the equator find all their crops have failed and their homes are literally lethally hot during summer so they flee to ... where? Anywhere where crops still grow. Like New Zealand, probably.

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cddt

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#3130001 21-Sep-2023 08:55

frankv:

Is there any actual evidence that spending money on CC will force governments into penury? In my view, it doesn't much matter what money is spent on, it will go round and round and stimulate the economy. For example, armaments aren't productive, yet large amounts are spent on them without governments going broke.

Quite the opposite really. We will pay much more to deal with the consequences than it would have cost to reduce emissions in the first place.

And re armaments - plenty of countries went broke in the 20th century through spending too much on them.

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#3130003 21-Sep-2023 08:59

cddt:

And re armaments - plenty of countries went broke in the 20th century through spending too much on them.

Yeah, I may be hallucinating, but I seem to remember there used to be this country called The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics which went broke in 1991 trying to keep up with the United States of America in arms production. And I seem to recall the United States of America being $33 trillion in debt which doesn't sound healthy either. Granted I have no clear perception of how much $33 trillion really is, but it feels like a lot more than I get paid.

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johno1234

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#3130006 21-Sep-2023 09:03

If people are to take CC seriously, it would help to move this clown out of the way:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/20/antonio-guterres-un-climate-summit-gates-hell

Not satisfied with "Global Boiling" now we have "Gates of Hell". He just leaps from from one ridiculous, unscientific hyperbole to another. Frightening children is not the solution.

MikeB4

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#3130007 21-Sep-2023 09:05

Imagine what could be done with money used in the stupid arms race.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

rb99

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#3130008 21-Sep-2023 09:06

Geektastic: And indeed the UK has pushed out a variety of dates for banning petrol and diesel cars, gas boilers and so on.

Doesn’t seem to have made the World section of the Herald yet though…

Utter desperation for votes after 13 years of uselessness.

“The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.” -John Kenneth Galbraith

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cddt

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#3130011 21-Sep-2023 09:10

Azzura:

This was a concern that popped into my mind a few years ago.

"The heat may not kill you, but the global food crisis might!"

It brings to mind a quote from a contemporary writer during the collapse of the Roman empire - I forget who, exactly - "those who the sword spares are stalked by famine".

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#3130013 21-Sep-2023 09:14

MikeB4: Imagine what could be done with money used in the stupid arms race.

And the War on Drugs, and the War on Terror. So much money and people wasted.

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#3130015 21-Sep-2023 09:20

SaltyNZ:
MikeB4: Imagine what could be done with money used in the stupid arms race.

And the War on Drugs, and the War on Terror. So much money and people wasted.

And now the war on stupidity to try and restore the only home our tamariki will have.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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#3130018 21-Sep-2023 09:33

The book (and the new show on Amazon Prime, which follows it relatively faithfully) The Peripheral by William Gibson makes the salient point that people don't realise that they are living in the collapse. For example, from the perspective of 1600 years of hindsight it seems like the Roman Empire fell overnight. But in reality, it took about 400 years, and the start and end of that time were pretty fuzzy; you can make a good argument for multiple historical events being the "start" or the "end".

The point is that for people who lived during that 400 year period, it didn't feel like a collapse. It just felt like things were a bit more shit when they were old compared to when they were young. And it didn't happen evenly; some places collapsed a lot more quickly or a lot harder than others. The edges of the empire felt it long before Rome itself. In The Peripheral, without giving too much away, the present is 2032 and the people 40 years in the future (i.e. the 2070s) call the collapse of ecosystems and societies "The Jackpot" - i.e. they were the ones who won the jackpot by being the few survivors.

It is widely agreed by the winners/survivors that the collapse was definitely already under way in the early 2020s. But in 2032 that wasn't obvious. It wouldn't be for another decade that the collapse gathered enough momentum to become the fast-moving cataclysm humans subconsciously believe the end of the world to be. And by the time it was undeniable even to the deniers, it was unstoppable.

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MikeB4

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#3130033 21-Sep-2023 10:02

Geektastic:

It’s voters that will be forced into penury. Not governments.

Future generations will be forced into much worse if we don't take action. The stupidity of the current UK Prime Minister shows that the UK is still a force for evil.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

kingdragonfly

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#3130091 21-Sep-2023 11:29

This is NOT real. It's a parody.

But God bless the real David Attenborough (not this deep fake) for trying to save us ... from us

PLnaT eRth | Episode 1

James Veitch

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