Which is more important - The TPPA or the Waitress?

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#1290324 23-Apr-2015 18:26

Why does everyone assume the TPPA will be so terrible in its final form? The government will be negotiating for favorable terms for New Zealand and if they aren't felt to be favorable why would they then take it any further?

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old3eyes

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#1290343 23-Apr-2015 18:51

Zeon: Why does everyone assume the TPPA will be so terrible in its final form? The government will be negotiating for favorable terms for New Zealand and if they aren't felt to be favorable why would they then take it any further?

Favorable to NZ ?? Your'kidding me. I can just see the US farming lobby opening it's arms to NZ dairy products.
Have a read of this
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MikeB4

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#1290360 23-Apr-2015 19:18

NZ seldom negotiates favorable terms for NZ

MikeB4

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#1290363 23-Apr-2015 19:21

nakedmolerat: Hopefully Collin Craig will be the next Prime Minister.

#TeamCollinCraig

Bet Ya he won't sign TPPA

I hope that nightmare thought is out of my head by the time I go to sleep tonight

shk292

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#1290364 23-Apr-2015 19:22

Zeon: Why does everyone assume the TPPA will be so terrible in its final form? The government will be negotiating for favorable terms for New Zealand and if they aren't felt to be favorable why would they then take it any further?

Because it's a convenient stick with which to whack the national government. There are plenty of exceptions, but it seems to me that many of the TPPA-chicken-littles are also the rabid anti-GM, anti-US, anti-globalisation, anti-free trade crowd

Lias

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#1290376 23-Apr-2015 19:57

Zeon: Why does everyone assume the TPPA will be so terrible in its final form? The government will be negotiating for favorable terms for New Zealand and if they aren't felt to be favorable why would they then take it any further?

Criminalising non commercial copyright infringement, huge fines and jail sentences for using your VPN to get around that geoblock.
A massive depletion of Pharmac drug funding by drastically extending the patents on medicines.
Copyright extension to as long as 100 years after the authors death.
An end to region free DVD/Bluray/etc players
Stronger enforcement on TPM/DRM type things. Jailbreak your iphone and go to jail for 10 years.
Draconian CFAA styles laws, of the sort that drove Aaron Swartz to commit suicide, and that would criminalize breaking a software/website EULA.

All totally in our national interest and not US/corporate interests.

I'm a geek, a gamer, a dad, a Quic user, and an IT Professional. I have a full rack home lab, size 15 feet, an epic beard and Asperger's. I'm a bit of a Cypherpunk, who believes information wants to be free and the Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it. If you use my Quic signup you can also use the code R570394EKGIZ8 for free setup.

Lias

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#1290379 23-Apr-2015 20:02

shk292:
Zeon: Why does everyone assume the TPPA will be so terrible in its final form? The government will be negotiating for favorable terms for New Zealand and if they aren't felt to be favorable why would they then take it any further?

Because it's a convenient stick with which to whack the national government. There are plenty of exceptions, but it seems to me that many of the TPPA-chicken-littles are also the rabid anti-GM, anti-US, anti-globalisation, anti-free trade crowd

Anti-GM is just stupid, it's the only way were going to feed the planet soon, but the GM modified foods need to be free/public domain, not owned by the likes of Monsanto.

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deadlyllama

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#1290397 23-Apr-2015 20:47

shk292:
Zeon: Why does everyone assume the TPPA will be so terrible in its final form? The government will be negotiating for favorable terms for New Zealand and if they aren't felt to be favorable why would they then take it any further?

Because it's a convenient stick with which to whack the national government. There are plenty of exceptions, but it seems to me that many of the TPPA-chicken-littles are also the rabid anti-GM, anti-US, anti-globalisation, anti-free trade crowd

Phillip Morris has sued the Australian government over plain packaging rules for cigarettes, under investor-state dispute provisions in existing "Free trade" agreements. http://www.ag.gov.au/tobaccoplainpackaging

Similar provisions are in the TPPA. Do you think multinational corporations should get special rights to sue our government when we pass laws that impact their profits?

JWR

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#1290399 23-Apr-2015 20:53

Lias:
shk292:
Zeon: Why does everyone assume the TPPA will be so terrible in its final form? The government will be negotiating for favorable terms for New Zealand and if they aren't felt to be favorable why would they then take it any further?

Because it's a convenient stick with which to whack the national government. There are plenty of exceptions, but it seems to me that many of the TPPA-chicken-littles are also the rabid anti-GM, anti-US, anti-globalisation, anti-free trade crowd

Anti-GM is just stupid, it's the only way were going to feed the planet soon, but the GM modified foods need to be free/public domain, not owned by the likes of Monsanto.

I tend to agree that being totally anti-GM/Biotech is not very reasonable. We could miss out on many benefits and I don't think we can feed 11 Billion people without it.

But, there are a range of options.

We don't have to adopt everything. But, to reject all of it would be foolish too IMO.

Any GM/Biotech we do use, needs to be open and well understood.

shk292

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#1290403 23-Apr-2015 20:58

deadlyllama:
shk292:
Zeon: Why does everyone assume the TPPA will be so terrible in its final form? The government will be negotiating for favorable terms for New Zealand and if they aren't felt to be favorable why would they then take it any further?

Because it's a convenient stick with which to whack the national government. There are plenty of exceptions, but it seems to me that many of the TPPA-chicken-littles are also the rabid anti-GM, anti-US, anti-globalisation, anti-free trade crowd

Phillip Morris has sued the Australian government over plain packaging rules for cigarettes, under investor-state dispute provisions in existing "Free trade" agreements. http://www.ag.gov.au/tobaccoplainpackaging

Similar provisions are in the TPPA. Do you think multinational corporations should get special rights to sue our government when we pass laws that impact their profits?

Depends. If a government capriciously changes law and breaks a contract, like Labour were threatening to do re the convention centre, then I think they deserve all they get.
It's one thing to be sued, another to lose and/or let it change what you do. Isn't the Aus govt basically saying "stuff you"?

As for the ten years in jail for jail breaking your iphone, that's just alarmist drivel. There is so much crap spouted anti-TPPA

frankv

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#1290405 23-Apr-2015 21:05

Zeon: Why does everyone assume the TPPA will be so terrible in its final form? The government will be negotiating for favorable terms for New Zealand and if they aren't felt to be favorable why would they then take it any further?

Because they were favourable to the governing party? Because they were favourable to the signing politicians?

shk292

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#1290406 23-Apr-2015 21:07

frankv:
Zeon: Why does everyone assume the TPPA will be so terrible in its final form? The government will be negotiating for favorable terms for New Zealand and if they aren't felt to be favorable why would they then take it any further?

Because they were favourable to the governing party? Because they were favourable to the signing politicians?

Yes, because we all know that John Keys and his nasty NACT henchmen are only in government to make lots of money

JWR

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#1290408 23-Apr-2015 21:09

shk292:
Zeon: Why does everyone assume the TPPA will be so terrible in its final form? The government will be negotiating for favorable terms for New Zealand and if they aren't felt to be favorable why would they then take it any further?

Because it's a convenient stick with which to whack the national government. There are plenty of exceptions, but it seems to me that many of the TPPA-chicken-littles are also the rabid anti-GM, anti-US, anti-globalisation, anti-free trade crowd

I think you need to open your mind.

You are just grouping people under labels without thinking about the issues involved.

Many people have worries about the TPPA.

It appears that the secrecy is not about ensuring a beneficial outcome (for New Zealand) so much as minimizing protest from the New Zealand public.

If NZ agrees to anything like that Wikileaks PPTA data, then that will be a very dark day for New Zealand imo.

Geektastic

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#1290443 23-Apr-2015 22:31

JWR:
shk292:
Zeon: Why does everyone assume the TPPA will be so terrible in its final form? The government will be negotiating for favorable terms for New Zealand and if they aren't felt to be favorable why would they then take it any further?

Because it's a convenient stick with which to whack the national government. There are plenty of exceptions, but it seems to me that many of the TPPA-chicken-littles are also the rabid anti-GM, anti-US, anti-globalisation, anti-free trade crowd

I think you need to open your mind.

You are just grouping people under labels without thinking about the issues involved.

Many people have worries about the TPPA.

It appears that the secrecy is not about ensuring a beneficial outcome (for New Zealand) so much as minimizing protest from the New Zealand public.

If NZ agrees to anything like that Wikileaks PPTA data, then that will be a very dark day for New Zealand imo.

"many people" are also demonstrably idiots; sadly the modern world of the internet means we get to hear the views of the left hand side of the bell curve as well as the right.

Free trade is a good thing in general and some of these things, such as extending copyright after creator's death, are now standard in Europe where the deceased artist's estate receives a percentage of sales. That kind of copyright extension is to be welcomed.

Secrecy is only to be expected - how could anyone reasonably negotiate an agreement like this if every line under discussion appeared in the media and was subject to endless asinine public debate? Nothing would ever get sorted out. The Treaty of Versailles or the founding documents for the UN or NATO were not debated in public, they were agreed behind closed doors. There is ample precedent.

Lias

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#1290458 23-Apr-2015 23:00

Geektastic: That kind of copyright extension is to be welcomed.

Not without some amazingly strong fair use provisions (which need to be greatly strengthened even with the current copyright terms)

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