Cost of preparing wills

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#1749927 29-Mar-2017 09:23

PaulBags: There's a kiwibank sponsored will autoform, I don't have the link handy.

Is that the one available to Kiwibank business customers? My understanding is that (or at least was) the free online will service was not available to standard customers.

Anyway, my wife set up her business accounts with KB, so we decided to take advantage of the free will service. Ironically, as soon as we answered "yes" to her holding shares in a business they said it was too complex for the free service, so we'd have to pay for bespoke wills! At that point it was easier just to use a local lawyer...

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#1749935 29-Mar-2017 09:40

sxz:

Lawyer here, and I've drafted tons of wills. Seems on the higher end, but on the scale.

Wills are not necessarily straightforward, and can be a massive problem if done wrong.

For a 'standard' will I would consider that husband/wife leave everything to each other, then the survivor of the two of them leaves everything to their kids. Appoint 2 executors and one guardian. That is straight forward and I would have though around $700 + GST for both of you (as each will is basically identical). But even this brings up questions, difficulties and options - such as - if you are both young, what should happen if you die young and your surviving partner remarries? at law their new spouse has a right to recover from their estate - so your kids might miss out when your surviving spouse then dies.

Anything non-standard, it is definitely a moving target. Especially when there is a second (or third or more) relationship and kids from previous relationships, trusts, kids being cut out, or other obligations under the family protection act to consider. Part of the problem is that to properly give advice, we need to ask a lot of these sorts of questions and make sure there aren't unusual situations that need to be considered. For this reason I've always been wary of 'will kits', even though for most young families they will be fine.

I find usually the most time is taken by people who are not sure of their instructions, or change their mind, or can't decide. (EDIT: - so if there is a checklist provided at the outset, and you answer it properly, promptly and accurately - you should keep costs right down (so long as you don't give the wrong sorts of answers, discussed above)!)

Probably a good reminder to consider doing my own will... :)

haha I like the ending to your comment! because this topic reminds me I need one too!

I just don't know where to start asking questions because the way my brain works is very complex that even I cannot understand.

Question: is this sort of "will" possible

If i i/both die and kids are young. i would not like them to get any access to money more than they need at that stage of life. but if they're responsible they can have it. say if they are at uni they get more money but only for studies. if they bomb out of school they get nothing. if they want to buy property at 24 and have a secure job they can get assistance. if they are jobless at 25 and want money - go away.

PaulBags

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#1749948 29-Mar-2017 09:54

jonathan18:
PaulBags: There's a kiwibank sponsored will autoform, I don't have the link handy.

Is that the one available to Kiwibank business customers? My understanding is that (or at least was) the free online will service was not available to standard customers.

Anyway, my wife set up her business accounts with KB, so we decided to take advantage of the free will service. Ironically, as soon as we answered "yes" to her holding shares in a business they said it was too complex for the free service, so we'd have to pay for bespoke wills! At that point it was easier just to use a local lawyer...

My mum found it searching online and she's not a kiwibank customer. It links through what appears to be a US site and the wording is a tad odd, but the clauses compared well with their existing wills so it was enough to change executors and void clauses no longer relevent. Their assets were simple, house & cash accounts in joint ownership, and my dads car in his name only but it's not worth anything.

As I said scary and I wouldn't recommend it, but it seems to be holding up well so far (though we haven't sorted the house deed yet. Bank won't release it despite the mortgage being paid in full and insist we get a lawyer. Same story before dad died). Had there been significant/complex assets we would have found the cash to call a lawyer out to the hospital asap, but I'd hate to think what that would have cost.

PaulBags

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#1749956 29-Mar-2017 10:00

joker97:
sxz:

Lawyer here, and I've drafted tons of wills. Seems on the higher end, but on the scale.

Wills are not necessarily straightforward, and can be a massive problem if done wrong.

For a 'standard' will I would consider that husband/wife leave everything to each other, then the survivor of the two of them leaves everything to their kids. Appoint 2 executors and one guardian. That is straight forward and I would have though around $700 + GST for both of you (as each will is basically identical). But even this brings up questions, difficulties and options - such as - if you are both young, what should happen if you die young and your surviving partner remarries? at law their new spouse has a right to recover from their estate - so your kids might miss out when your surviving spouse then dies.

Anything non-standard, it is definitely a moving target. Especially when there is a second (or third or more) relationship and kids from previous relationships, trusts, kids being cut out, or other obligations under the family protection act to consider. Part of the problem is that to properly give advice, we need to ask a lot of these sorts of questions and make sure there aren't unusual situations that need to be considered. For this reason I've always been wary of 'will kits', even though for most young families they will be fine.

I find usually the most time is taken by people who are not sure of their instructions, or change their mind, or can't decide. (EDIT: - so if there is a checklist provided at the outset, and you answer it properly, promptly and accurately - you should keep costs right down (so long as you don't give the wrong sorts of answers, discussed above)!)

Probably a good reminder to consider doing my own will... :)

haha I like the ending to your comment! because this topic reminds me I need one too!

I just don't know where to start asking questions because the way my brain works is very complex that even I cannot understand.

Question: is this sort of "will" possible

If i i/both die and kids are young. i would not like them to get any access to money more than they need at that stage of life. but if they're responsible they can have it. say if they are at uni they get more money but only for studies. if they bomb out of school they get nothing. if they want to buy property at 24 and have a secure job they can get assistance. if they are jobless at 25 and want money - go away.

(Layman) You have executors and trustees of an estate, so in this case your estate would be held in trust and managed. No idea what the fees would look like, and you'd want a lawyer to set it up. Of course anything you leave to yoir partner/they jointly own is theirs and their will applies.

Paul1977

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#1750012 29-Mar-2017 11:18

How does Do-It-Yourself-Wills stack up?

Basically it's just me and my partner with no kids. In the event one of us dies, we want the other to be the beneficiary of everything. If we were to both die, then everything to be split between our niece and nephew.

The only thing even slightly complicated is who takes our our cats if we both die.

Seems very straight forward, and I didn't really want to pay a lawyer for something that seems so simple.

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#1750175 29-Mar-2017 14:59

PaulBags:
surfisup1000:

We did a will through public trust, how would we go about 'divorcing them'?

Layman opinion: a new will without them should be all you need, wills are dated as well as witnessed and the first clause should null any previous wills - including public trusts authority as executor etc.

Not sure why consumer recommends them :/. Check their fee structure, they don't make it easy to do so which is a red flag itself, then from what I found they make (taking examples from this thread) $1300 setup + $1500 to execute look like pocket change.

Yep, the first clause on my will is "I revoke all former wills and testamentary dispositions."

If your new will has this, bye bye public trust.

Money and time well spend to do so IMHO.

darylblake

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#1750207 29-Mar-2017 15:33

There is a GOVT department that does offer free will services.
If you want to use a lawyer that sounds about right, go for it, get it done. If something happens tomorrow to one of you, the other one can rest easier knowing its taken care of.

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#1750212 29-Mar-2017 15:36

Another online one, not quite DIY, but not full service is https://legalbeagle.co.nz/personal/

I know someone who works for the parent company and was involved in the questions\back end stuff.

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#1750217 29-Mar-2017 15:43

darylblake:

There is a GOVT department that does offer free will services.
If you want to use a lawyer that sounds about right, go for it, get it done. If something happens tomorrow to one of you, the other one can rest easier knowing its taken care of.

What Govt Department offers free wills?

pctek

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#1750355 29-Mar-2017 20:26

I have done my own.

You don't need anything except a piece of paper, a pen and 2 witnesses who do not benefit from the will.

If you remarry it generally invalidates the ex. Barring court fights.

Of course, the lawyers win in that case.

whatever.

I have an executor. Mine basically says all to husband. If he dead too, then all to son and granddaughter.

Mainly this is the house. If he keeps it, fine, it's hius and he can do his own will.

But if he sells it it's 1/2 and 1/2 between him and granddaughter until she is older.

Executor banks her share in an interest account. Not a trust, not Public Trust who charge the earth for everything.

I want her to have the money, not see it eaten by fees or whatever.

Lawyers charge the earth too and it is not necessary unless you have some real complicated arrangements.

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#1750437 29-Mar-2017 23:20

pctek:

I have done my own.

You don't need anything except a piece of paper, a pen and 2 witnesses who do not benefit from the will.

If you remarry it generally invalidates the ex. Barring court fights.

Of course, the lawyers win in that case.

whatever.

I have an executor. Mine basically says all to husband. If he dead too, then all to son and granddaughter.

Mainly this is the house. If he keeps it, fine, it's hius and he can do his own will.

But if he sells it it's 1/2 and 1/2 between him and granddaughter until she is older.

Executor banks her share in an interest account. Not a trust, not Public Trust who charge the earth for everything.

I want her to have the money, not see it eaten by fees or whatever.

Lawyers charge the earth too and it is not necessary unless you have some real complicated arrangements.

And the one real positive with a DIY will is ... if you stuff it up, you'll be none the wiser (-;

If you no dependents, fair enough. But, as in the OP case, if there are children involved, and you want to ensure the best for them after you've shed your mortal coil, why take the risk with a DIY just to save a couple of hundred dollars?

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#1750464 30-Mar-2017 07:32

pctek:
I have done my own.

You don't need anything except a piece of paper, a pen and 2 witnesses who do not benefit from the will.

If you remarry it generally invalidates the ex. Barring court fights.

Of course, the lawyers win in that case.

whatever.

I have an executor. Mine basically says all to husband. If he dead too, then all to son and granddaughter.

Mainly this is the house. If he keeps it, fine, it's hius and he can do his own will.

But if he sells it it's 1/2 and 1/2 between him and granddaughter until she is older.

Executor banks her share in an interest account. Not a trust, not Public Trust who charge the earth for everything.

I want her to have the money, not see it eaten by fees or whatever.

Lawyers charge the earth too and it is not necessary unless you have some real complicated arrangements.

on the information provided, this will means that if the husband survives then after pctek's will completes probate, the son and granddaughter get nothing. If the husband changes his will to everything to a cat, for example.

My point is, there are holes thar *could* lead to family enmity. When I did my will last year, I learned a lot that I hadn't thought of.

Also, where is the will lodged? What if the house burns down with everything lost? Is the will lost?

sxz

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#1750787 30-Mar-2017 17:01

This thread may be dead or dying, but thought I would add another 2 cents (that's 4 now, if you're counting).

Lots of lawyers will offer a cheap (or free) will when you buy your house, or as part of setting up a trust, but most lawyers who charge low fees for Wills do so as a commercial decision to keep client happy (or attract new clients) - not because Wills are cheap or easy (they are not). They will usually be writing off a fair bit of time spent. Think of it as your mechanic throwing in a free wheel alignment with every service.

But remember Wills can easily become complicated, so they cause us a lot of angst trying to consider and prevent all the ways things could go wrong in 5, 10 or 30 years time, even if it appears to be simple to you.

As mentioned above, here is a simple scenario I have seen happen a few times that has meant kids miss out in a way that the parents really did not intend.

1. Simple Will. Husband leaves all to Wife, and if she dies first, then to the kids.

2. Husband dies, wife gets everything.

3. Kids then have not received under Dad's will, but might under mums will. One day. Maybe.

4. Kids have 12 months to decide whether or not to make a challenge under the family protection act seeking a share of dads estate from mum (now that's great for family relations). Such a challenge can be made by some family members if they should have, but didn't get a fair share under the will.

5. If the kids don't make a claim, dads stuff is now mums stuff.

6. Mum re-marries a toy-boy, and spends all her money on a new house with new husband (new husband had no money to contribute). Mum soon dies too.

7. In Mum's Will, she left new toy-boy husband a lift interest in the house (he can stay there until he dies), and then after that, but only after that, the kids get the house. Because the kids have been left something under the Will, they will have a hard time making a family protection act claim against mums estate, but because mum married a toy boy - they have to wait for him to die (and he could be their age or younger) before they have a look in at their share of their mums or their dads estate. I've seen kids in their 60's be told they had to wait for mum's boyfriend (also in 60's) to die before they see anything, all based of someone's 'simple' Will.

Or alternate option to 6 & 7:

6. Mum has a boyfriend of 3 years (de facto) and dies with a Will in place leaving everything to her kids.

7. Boyfriend makes a property (relationships) act claim against the estate claiming 1/2 of mums stuff even though she didnt leave him anything and they were only together for 3 years. Kids then miss out on 1/2 of mum & dads stuff.

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#1750789 30-Mar-2017 17:05

sxz:

This thread may be dead or dying, but thought I would add another 2 cents (that's 4 now, if you're counting).

Lots of lawyers will offer a cheap (or free) will when you buy your house, or as part of setting up a trust, but most lawyers who charge low fees for Wills do so as a commercial decision to keep client happy (or attract new clients) - not because Wills are cheap or easy (they are not). They will usually be writing off a fair bit of time spent. Think of it as your mechanic throwing in a free wheel alignment with every service.

But remember Wills can easily become complicated, so they cause us a lot of angst trying to consider and prevent all the ways things could go wrong in 5, 10 or 30 years time, even if it appears to be simple to you.

As mentioned above, here is a simple scenario I have seen happen a few times that has meant kids miss out in a way that the parents really did not intend.

1. Simple Will. Husband leaves all to Wife, and if she dies first, then to the kids.

2. Husband dies, wife gets everything.

3. Kids then have not received under Dad's will, but might under mums will. One day. Maybe.

4. Kids have 12 months to decide whether or not to make a challenge under the family protection act seeking a share of dads estate from mum (now that's great for family relations). Such a challenge can be made by some family members if they should have, but didn't get a fair share under the will.

5. If the kids don't make a claim, dads stuff is now mums stuff.

6. Mum re-marries a toy-boy, and spends all her money on a new house with new husband (new husband had no money to contribute). Mum soon dies too.

7. In Mum's Will, she left new toy-boy husband a lift interest in the house (he can stay there until he dies), and then after that, but only after that, the kids get the house. Because the kids have been left something under the Will, they will have a hard time making a family protection act claim against mums estate, but because mum married a toy boy - they have to wait for him to die (and he could be their age or younger) before they have a look in at their share of their mums or their dads estate. I've seen kids in their 60's be told they had to wait for mum's boyfriend (also in 60's) to die before they see anything, all based of someone's 'simple' Will.

Or alternate option to 6 & 7:

6. Mum has a boyfriend of 3 years (de facto) and dies with a Will in place leaving everything to her kids.

7. Boyfriend makes a property (relationships) act claim against the estate claiming 1/2 of mums stuff even though she didnt leave him anything and they were only together for 3 years. Kids then miss out on 1/2 of mum & dads stuff.

Thanks. Are you saying don't do a simple will to leave all to other living spouse?

Or are you saying if you leave all to living spouse there needs to be another layer saying what the kids will actually get.

sxz

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#1750901 30-Mar-2017 20:53

joker97:

Thanks. Are you saying don't do a simple will to leave all to other living spouse?

Or are you saying if you leave all to living spouse there needs to be another layer saying what the kids will actually get.

Sorry, I typed a big response and managed to lose it.

I guess there is no simple Will. An extra layer saying what the kids will get can definately work, but also means the survivor can't just do what they want anymore, because the executor will be required to keep the kids interests in mind. If you give kids cash now, that's money the spouse cant use. Once the ins and outs are explained most people seem to just go with the simple option.

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