New Zealand company Sistema bought by US company. Union unhappy about current conditions

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Ultimate Geek
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#2065280 30-Jul-2018 20:44

tdgeek:

surfisup1000:

tdgeek:

Unemployment is low here, that encourages lower wages, thats basic supply and demand,

Low unemployment actually causes wages to increase.

How so? Due to lack of available employees? Sounds fair, but while unemployment is low, its not nil, there are always people looking for jobs, so when there is a job, the employer holds the cards. One job, 20 applicants type of thing.

Economists consider 5% full employment as anything less is inflationary and there will always be a group of people unemployable for whatever reason (sometimes choice).

I don't follow your logic - low unemployment means when there is a job, the employer doesn't get as many people applying or doesn't get the right sort of people applying. They then have to increase their wages to attract the right applicants.

Alternatively, low unemployment means that someone can leave their current job and go to a competitor, who is struggling to find staff so is paying more. To keep their employees from going elsewhere, the employer will have to increase their pay to make them stay.

When there's high unemployment, the job market is flooded with people looking for work so the employer doesn't have to give pay rises (as the employee will find it hard to find work elsewhere)

I recall a headline a couple of weeks ago free range eggs - everyone loves the idea and supports it......until they get to the checkout. The same applies here, people support higher wages but are they willing to pay higher prices for them?

Fred99

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#2065282 30-Jul-2018 20:50

bmt:

Were the Sistema employees moved to 60 hour a week contracts or did they know what they were signing up for?

If you're a low skilled assembly line drone doing the same thing over and over again, what exactly is making you deserve more than the minimum wage? Are you single handedly and visibly increasing productivity and production output to deserve an increase??

Workers at that level can't increase ovearall productivity much. Capital investment in more productive machinery might, but that's probably a losing battle in NZ if making mass-produced plastic thingamebobs. You'd get a better ROI elsewhere - unfortunately much of it is not productive/job-creating locally.

So what's plan B?

tdgeek

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#2065286 30-Jul-2018 20:59

logo:

tdgeek:

surfisup1000:

tdgeek:

Unemployment is low here, that encourages lower wages, thats basic supply and demand,

Low unemployment actually causes wages to increase.

How so? Due to lack of available employees? Sounds fair, but while unemployment is low, its not nil, there are always people looking for jobs, so when there is a job, the employer holds the cards. One job, 20 applicants type of thing.

Economists consider 5% full employment as anything less is inflationary and there will always be a group of people unemployable for whatever reason (sometimes choice).

I don't follow your logic - low unemployment means when there is a job, the employer doesn't get as many people applying or doesn't get the right sort of people applying. They then have to increase their wages to attract the right applicants.

Alternatively, low unemployment means that someone can leave their current job and go to a competitor, who is struggling to find staff so is paying more. To keep their employees from going elsewhere, the employer will have to increase their pay to make them stay.

When there's high unemployment, the job market is flooded with people looking for work so the employer doesn't have to give pay rises (as the employee will find it hard to find work elsewhere)

I recall a headline a couple of weeks ago free range eggs - everyone loves the idea and supports it......until they get to the checkout. The same applies here, people support higher wages but are they willing to pay higher prices for them?

Your post is correct for skilled labour, but for unskilled labour there are always unemployed looking for jobs, so you will often have 1 job and many applicants. Its not asking for nurses when there is a shortage of nurses, in which case there are no nurses, so higher rates allow nurses to change employers. Unskilled jobs are more common and more widespread, so they dont follow that rule as well. In any small town there could well be a glut of employees, or hardly any, which will then drive wages up.

Geektastic

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#2065308 30-Jul-2018 21:37

tdgeek:

Geektastic:
Benjip:

Those saying "move production to China", are you aware that one of the major success factors of the Sistema brand (and its products) is that it's made in New Zealand (with our "clean green" image on the international stage)?

If it were to move to China, it'd just be another plastics brand competing against many others.

What's clean and green about plastic these days?

It could be. I dont know much about plastics, but if they made plastics that can be re melted and re used, they can make plastic in red bins illegal, must go to a recycle bin, and it does get re used here, I gather much recycle bin stuff doesnt actually get recycled. So use these clean green plastics as its illegal to dump them. Throw in a Singapore-like fine for dumping.

Would not wholly surprise me to see someone ban plastic manufacture in NZ and quietly fob it off onto other places...

Fred99

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#2065310 30-Jul-2018 21:47

logo:

Economists consider 5% full employment as anything less is inflationary and there will always be a group of people unemployable for whatever reason (sometimes choice).

Actually, economists can't even seem to agree on a reliable standard measure for "unemployment" or "inflation" - they keep changing them. So expecting a profession - who exist mainly because of a move by God to make weather forecasters look reliable - to truly know WTF is going on is a big ask.

AFAIK the "real" unemployment level measured by household labour force survey is known BS. Inflation as defined by CPI is also mainly a BS measure. It's great if you're buying some plastic thingamebobs, not so great if you're buying a house or paying interest, or if your expenditure pattern doesn't match the standard basket of goods and services. If you're poor or rich, then your expenditure won't match the basket very well.

1cloud

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#2065315 30-Jul-2018 22:25

'overtime' rates were just $2 more per hour, he said.".

Better than nothing

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Aredwood

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#2065416 31-Jul-2018 08:47

The long shifts are probably a side effect of the low unemployment. The managers are probably having trouble employing enough workers So they can reduce the average number of hours per worker.

It also might be a safeguard as well. If the company looses a major contract, Instead of having to lay off workers. It can instead reduce their hours.

The 12 hour shifts also reduce the workers travel costs as a % of hours worked. (and probably driving ouside of peak times as well) And a reduction in hours could be accommodated by having the workers only work 4 days per week. Cheaper travel costs, a 3 day weekend every week. Sounds like an really good place to work.

Also there is always a need for some min wage jobs in any economy. As there are people who have just left school, have health problems, are on a benefit and want to get a job etc. Min wage jobs are needed for such people.

Benjip

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#2065431 31-Jul-2018 09:24

Geektastic:

What's clean and green about plastic these days?

Re-usable plastic containers that last literally years? They are a lot better for the environment than single-serve plastic.

Even some of the large sushi chains are now offering a discount if you rock up with your own re-usable plastic container (rather than using one of their single-use plastic containers).

And more to the point, people trust the safety of NZ's manufacturing of food-related goods more than they trust something coming out of China. Would you rather put your child's food in some unknown plastic container (that might contain BPA and other phthalates) or one that was made in a country with a global reputation for being clean & green?

Geektastic

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#2065488 31-Jul-2018 10:24

Benjip:
Geektastic:

What's clean and green about plastic these days?

Re-usable plastic containers that last literally years? They are a lot better for the environment than single-serve plastic.

Even some of the large sushi chains are now offering a discount if you rock up with your own re-usable plastic container (rather than using one of their single-use plastic containers).

And more to the point, people trust the safety of NZ's manufacturing of food-related goods more than they trust something coming out of China. Would you rather put your child's food in some unknown plastic container (that might contain BPA and other phthalates) or one that was made in a country with a global reputation for being clean & green?

However people mostly aren't that picky. They seem happy to buy fairly much anything else child related that might come from China so I'm not sure how much impact that particular point would have.

If the made in China plastic box says BPA free and is half the cost of the NZ made one I'm betting there'd be a lot of Chinese plastic boxes sold...

Benjip

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#2065504 31-Jul-2018 10:31

Geektastic:

However people mostly aren't that picky. They seem happy to buy fairly much anything else child related that might come from China so I'm not sure how much impact that particular point would have.

If the made in China plastic box says BPA free and is half the cost of the NZ made one I'm betting there'd be a lot of Chinese plastic boxes sold...

Trust me, they are :)

I worked at Sistema so I know quite a bit about how their products are marketed around the globe.

SepticSceptic

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#2065584 31-Jul-2018 12:30

Benjip:

Geektastic:

However people mostly aren't that picky. They seem happy to buy fairly much anything else child related that might come from China so I'm not sure how much impact that particular point would have.

If the made in China plastic box says BPA free and is half the cost of the NZ made one I'm betting there'd be a lot of Chinese plastic boxes sold...

Trust me, they are :)

I worked at Sistema so I know quite a bit about how their products are marketed around the globe.

A family member worked on the plastics side of things, and told me the amount of R&D that goes into designing and manufacturing the Sistema plastics. Especially to make it BPA-free, recyclable, and to withstand temperatures from subzero to over 100C, without leaching, without deforming, breaking the clips, etc.

Even adding colour tints changes the way the plastic extrudes and requires more R&D to get the formulation right.

I am a fan of sistema plastics, and the pantry is containerised with a suites of sistema, as well as lunch boxes, freezer storage etc..

They certainly have lasted many years, even with daily use of microwaving, freezing, rough handling, etc. Far better than most other plastic storage I have purchased in the past.

Tupperware would be the only other product that has the longevity of Sistema.

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MurrayM

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#2065671 31-Jul-2018 14:00

SepticSceptic:

I am a fan of sistema plastics, and the pantry is containerised with a suites of sistema, as well as lunch boxes, freezer storage etc..

They certainly have lasted many years, even with daily use of microwaving, freezing, rough handling, etc. Far better than most other plastic storage I have purchased in the past.

Tupperware would be the only other product that has the longevity of Sistema.

Yeah Sistema products are pretty good. My main gripe it the little parts that the handles clip into, I've got a couple of containers where that entire part has broken off which means they're no longer air/water tight.

tripper1000

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#2066222 1-Aug-2018 11:44

1cloud:
'overtime' rates were just $2 more per hour, he said.".

Better than nothing

You become your own worst enemy when working for paltry overtimes rates. The simple solution is don't do overtime if it isn't worth it. The company will be forced to increase the overtime offering to attract people until a balance is struck. Supply/demand and all that.

I don't envy people working 12 hours shifts, and I don't believe they are sustainable or healthy. I've done it and it destroyed me. No life to speak of, just eating, sleeping and working - nothing else. Parents don't have time to invest in their kids which creates new social problems etc etc.

clevedon

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#2066266 1-Aug-2018 12:31

tripper1000: I don't envy people working 12 hours shifts, and I don't believe they are sustainable or healthy. I've done it and it destroyed me. No life to speak of, just eating, sleeping and working - nothing else. Parents don't have time to invest in their kids which creates new social problems etc etc.

In my mid 20's I did 12 hour shifts and sometimes a 16 hour shift thrown in to complete a project. Alternating shifts, some starting midnight, some 8.00am some midday and some 4.00pm. Six days a week with an hours travel either side of it, admittedly the pay was very good and, yep not a lot of time for much else.

But it was the best thing I could of ever done, it was an awesome job that I enjoyed, gained tons of experience and financially worth it.

surfisup1000

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#2066278 1-Aug-2018 12:50

clevedon:

tripper1000: I don't envy people working 12 hours shifts, and I don't believe they are sustainable or healthy. I've done it and it destroyed me. No life to speak of, just eating, sleeping and working - nothing else. Parents don't have time to invest in their kids which creates new social problems etc etc.

In my mid 20's I did 12 hour shifts and sometimes a 16 hour shift thrown in to complete a project. Alternating shifts, some starting midnight, some 8.00am some midday and some 4.00pm. Six days a week with an hours travel either side of it, admittedly the pay was very good and, yep not a lot of time for much else.

But it was the best thing I could of ever done, it was an awesome job that I enjoyed, gained tons of experience and financially worth it.

It is comparing apples and oranges though.

As an IT professional , i have worked long hours on projects. Project work was interesting, somewhat stressful, long hours with great pay. Most importantly, projects have a completion date at which time you move onto the next thing. Between projects there is time to recuperate. You can work long hours when you know it is only for a finite period.

Working a production line in manufacturing.....every day is the same, no perks, low pay, and it goes on forever.

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