The ol' Consumers Guarantees Act and Second hand goods (car)

Forums › Off topic › The ol' Consumers Guarantees Act and Second hand goods (car)

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#748492 21-Jan-2013 21:46

Did the coils resolve the issue? They were not intended to so I guess not. If not then you still have a problem and will want to continue the process anyway until the issue is resolved.

So there is a mismatch on the diagnosis. I suggest getting more neutral information from the franchise mechanic about why this mismatch could occur. You could ask the franchise mechanic how he diagnosed the injectors issues and his opinion about how someone else would miss it. Interesting to know if it was diagnosed with a computer or other means. No idea if a computer will show or an analysis of data will show injector wear. Others might like to comment on that. You could then ask the dealers "specialist" what equipment he used to diagnose the issue and talk to him about the mismatch.

You could ask the franchise mechanic his opinion about replacing the NOX sensor. Perhaps he is well aware if it has no impact on the problem but if it is clearly an issue for other critical functions like emission control and it is just something he picked up at the same time.

You can also ask the franchise mechanic his opinion about 'adjusting the idle'. No idea in this particular case but in general idle adjustments can mask a multitude of problems.

The obvious way to go after all that discussion is get a second diagnosis from another franchise level or similarly equipped workshop and see if it matches the first. The dealer will find it hard to argue with two opinions.

It looks like the CAB is suggesting writing a letter formally asking the dealer to sort it out fully based on that other diagnosis. If CAB are suggesting it then maybe that is the right thing to do, but you should ask them about the next step if that comes back negative which is probably will.

If you decide to let the dealer's guy attempt to resolve the issue personally I would take it to the franchise after that to see what they think of the resolution. If the resolution is just masking the problem or worse that might be the time to pay for the required repair and file a case with the DT.

mattwnz

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#748497 21-Jan-2013 21:52

Perhaps you need to take it to a third party to find out exactly what needs fixing, preferably an authorized manufacturers repairer, which has been recommended by the manufacturer of the car. That way you can find out exactly what the problem is. They can't really argue with the manufacturers representatives findings. If 2 out of 3 find the problem, then that is quite conclusive.

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#748503 21-Jan-2013 22:04

Aaroona:
gzt: Current status? You had the issue resolved? or just a diagnosis and maybe a quote?

Current status, to fix through official channels. quote includes parts, labour and reprogramming; $3250.
Or if I buy the parts myself, around 1.2k if I get pinged for customs, plus 700-800 for labour.

Sorry and to be clear, issue still present. Quote only and diagnosis, on paper.

Something doesn't seem right here where they say reprogrammning, if they meant clearing the fault codes I would have believed it, are you sure this mechanic isn't having you on?

I would be accepting the offer from the original seller to cover the labour as it is a very generous offer, I would also be changing the O2 sensor first and seeing if it does in fact fix the issue.

SATTV

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#748531 21-Jan-2013 22:51

A couple of people have asked for the make and model of the car and it has never been answered.
What is the actual fault / problem you are experiencing?
I am struggling to see how injectors can be faulty, they can clog with dirty fuel but that is not the car dealers problem.
What Petrol do you use?
Maybe you should use Gull as they have 10% methanol in theirs and that will help clear the pipes.

I know enough to be dangerous

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#748535 21-Jan-2013 22:56

please tell us what car it is so I don't go near one?

gzt

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#748613 22-Jan-2013 09:07

SATTV: I am struggling to see how injectors can be faulty, they can clog with dirty fuel but that is not the car dealers problem.

I assumed the injectors were excessively worn or faulting rather than simply obstructed. OP will need to ask exactly the problem.

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#748615 22-Jan-2013 09:14

dickytim:
Aaroona:
gzt: Current status? You had the issue resolved? or just a diagnosis and maybe a quote?

Current status, to fix through official channels. quote includes parts, labour and reprogramming; $3250.
Or if I buy the parts myself, around 1.2k if I get pinged for customs, plus 700-800 for labour.

Sorry and to be clear, issue still present. Quote only and diagnosis, on paper.

Something doesn't seem right here where they say reprogrammning, if they meant clearing the fault codes I would have believed it, are you sure this mechanic isn't having you on?

I would be accepting the offer from the original seller to cover the labour as it is a very generous offer, I would also be changing the O2 sensor first and seeing if it does in fact fix the issue.

My 2009 Mazda 3 has had faults resolved from ECU firmware updates. - Was only a cruise control issue mind you.

I don't see how labor would be that big to replace an oxy sensor. Unless it's in a really awkward position it's not exactly a hard component to access.

Cambo

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#750009 24-Jan-2013 09:28

I think we are jumping the gun and being a bit unfair to the dealer – we need to give them the benefit of the doubt.

It is a used car, and you have no proven service/repair history. It may have low KM, but what if the previous owner used a poor quality of oil? Or the wrong type of fuel? The car could just be a dud.

Even if the car sat in a garage for most of the time, parts still have a replacement timeline regardless of KM travelled.

The majority of dealers, if they trade in a car which they have issues with, will get the car checked out at least by their own mechanic or by a ‘competent authority’.

I work for an authorised Subaru repairer, we get 2nd hand cars in all the time from yards who want faults/concerns checked out. But they usually get an after-market or second-hand part fitted to reduce the cost.

Car yards do definitely want to lower their cost, but I highly doubt they would sell a car that they know has performance issues.

I encounter vehicles 2 years out of factory 3 year warranty which need hundreds of dollars of engine repairs – ignition coils, sensors etc.

It sucks, but that’s the nature of owning a vehicle.

Keep in mind that a vehicle can roll off the production line and have no issues. The next one in line could have problems from day one.

In this case, you have approached the dealer in the right manner. I think they are being great by offering to pay for part of the repair.

You never know, they may have had the car for 6 months, started it a few times a week to move it, and it may never have played up for them.

Before buying a second hand car, it is highly recommended to get a pre-purchase inspection and get hold of as much service history as possible.

Also, you can’t have a car and not expect to pay $0 in maintainence.

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#750015 24-Jan-2013 09:36

WHen buying a second hand vehicle from a dealer always buy that mechanical warrantee. Even if its just for 1 year.

On my last car it was not very expensive either.

Cambo

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#750030 24-Jan-2013 10:09

OP has mentioned knock sensor and someone else raised oxygen sensor, so I will explain the difference.
O2 sensor sits in the exhaust and usually works in conjunction with an air/fuel ratio sensor. It makes sure the AFRS is controlling the correct air/fuel mix for the best ignition.
The knock sensor checks for premature ignition, and will retard the engine timing if needed.

Keep in mind that any fault code for any sensor does not guarantee that the sensors are faulty and need replacing. A good mechanic will test the function of the sensor, usually by replacing with a test unit to isolate the problem. The fault could be in the electrical wiring, or the sensor could have gotten a bit dirty, freaked out and sent a false alarm.
My girlfriends car had an ABS light on this week. Traced fault to a dry solder connection (for a wheel speed sensor) in the ECU control module (controls fault readings). ABS sensor and speed sensors were fine.

If indeed the knock sensor is faulty, it is not an urgent replacement but you should get it replaced/repaired in the next 6 months. You will have the engine light on (intermittently or permanently), may get continued performance issues and could lead to engine failure in the worst case. I would rate it as more important a repair than the O2 sensor.

gzt

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#750049 24-Jan-2013 10:46

Cambo: I think we are jumping the gun and being a bit unfair to the dealer – we need to give them the benefit of the doubt.

The dealer has responsibilities under consumer law. That is one reason buyers go to a dealer. I have not seen anyone here suggesting the dealer sold this car knowing there were issues. Most of this discussion has been about which consumer laws apply and how to arrive at a resolution.

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#750109 24-Jan-2013 12:27

Cambo: OP has mentioned knock sensor and someone else raised oxygen sensor, so I will explain the difference.
O2 sensor sits in the exhaust and usually works in conjunction with an air/fuel ratio sensor. It makes sure the AFRS is controlling the correct air/fuel mix for the best ignition.
The knock sensor checks for premature ignition, and will retard the engine timing if needed.

Keep in mind that any fault code for any sensor does not guarantee that the sensors are faulty and need replacing. A good mechanic will test the function of the sensor, usually by replacing with a test unit to isolate the problem. The fault could be in the electrical wiring, or the sensor could have gotten a bit dirty, freaked out and sent a false alarm.
My girlfriends car had an ABS light on this week. Traced fault to a dry solder connection (for a wheel speed sensor) in the ECU control module (controls fault readings). ABS sensor and speed sensors were fine.

If indeed the knock sensor is faulty, it is not an urgent replacement but you should get it replaced/repaired in the next 6 months. You will have the engine light on (intermittently or permanently), may get continued performance issues and could lead to engine failure in the worst case. I would rate it as more important a repair than the O2 sensor.

my bad about the o2 sensor, I had miss read.

My way of thinking is that is the knock sensor was faulty it could easily cause the issue reported as the car would always be running retarded and the car would also be pouring fuel into it to try and fix the knock (my basic understanding) which could make the injectors look like they were on their way out.

gzt

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#750127 24-Jan-2013 12:48

Cambo: OP has mentioned knock sensor and someone else raised oxygen sensor

Cambo: If indeed the knock sensor is faulty, it is not an urgent replacement but you should get it replaced/repaired in the next 6 months. You will have the engine light on (intermittently or permanently), may get continued performance issues and could lead to engine failure in the worst case. I would rate it as more important a repair than the O2 sensor.

OP has mentioned an issue with the Nox sensor. Nothing about the knock sensor.

A knock sensor is not the same as a Nox sensor.

Cambo must know this and either

(a) misread it
(b) is making his own diagnosis about the issue

Which one Cambo? ; ).

Cambo

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#750185 24-Jan-2013 13:36

Ah yes, the fabled NOx sensor. Quite rare, not widely used. OP maybe has purchased a VW with an FSI engine?
If you say knock sensor quickly it could be construed as nox :P

I know the dangers of internet diagnosis, so I was just offering an alternate point of view.
One of our mechanics is best in the country for a certain european brand (recently schooled the head global technician who flew in to learn how to fix his new engines!) - has never heard of NOx sensors :S

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#753614 31-Jan-2013 08:38

Kyanar: There is no exception to the exception for licensed dealers of any kind, the CGA simply does not apply to auctions or tenders, ever.

Just to add to this OT discussion, I am of the understanding that the CGA applies to anything bought via "Buy Now" as this is not a true auction. This may be causing the confusion? Not everything sold on trademe is sold via auction.

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