Referendum Options

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Networkn
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#547943 21-Nov-2011 16:34

sleemanj:
networkn: I am a little worried about the greens. I actually for the first time think they have 1-2 compelling policies (education) however the stunt with the bill boards and Robyn Malcolms carry on

I don't think it is fair to tar a whole party by the actions of a few general party members. There are extremists in all the parties, usually they are kept under thumb by the party officials, but occasionally they slip out, just the nature of politics, and religion.

Well it's not just those two actions, and to be fair it was more than a few volunteers that got involved. It does speak I think, to the general frame of mind of the supporters. I couldn't really imagine National or Labour people doing that. I was a little surprised that it wasn't more severely dealt with.

By their own words, Greens do consider themselves in the large to be activists, I am sure I saw something from the leaders about it in the Herald making a comment to that effect.

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#547944 21-Nov-2011 16:36

networkn: I am a little worried about the greens. I actually for the first time think they have 1-2 compelling policies (education) however the stunt with the bill boards and Robyn Malcolms carry on, leads me to believe they are still basically well educated (in the most part) activists.

Yes, they seem to have successfully re-branded themselves as a mainstream party but underneath the surface I think they're still pretty radical.

They seem to have a lot of big spending plans, but their voodoo economics doesn't bode well for increasing tax revenue. It does make me wonder if some voters are switching their support from Labour to National in order to keep the Greens out of government.

crackrdbycracku

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#547950 21-Nov-2011 16:49

sleemanj:
networkn: I am a little worried about the greens. I actually for the first time think they have 1-2 compelling policies (education) however the stunt with the bill boards and Robyn Malcolms carry on

I don't think it is fair to tar a whole party by the actions of a few general party members. There are extremists in all the parties, usually they are kept under thumb by the party officials, but occasionally they slip out, just the nature of politics, and religion.

The last Green policy I heard of was:

100,000 'Green jobs' to do, well you know, Green Stuff.

This is not inspiring me with confidence.

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networkn

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#547977 21-Nov-2011 17:37

alasta:
networkn: I am a little worried about the greens. I actually for the first time think they have 1-2 compelling policies (education) however the stunt with the bill boards and Robyn Malcolms carry on, leads me to believe they are still basically well educated (in the most part) activists.

Yes, they seem to have successfully re-branded themselves as a mainstream party but underneath the surface I think they're still pretty radical.

They seem to have a lot of big spending plans, but their voodoo economics doesn't bode well for increasing tax revenue. It does make me wonder if some voters are switching their support from Labour to National in order to keep the Greens out of government.

That wouldn't surprise me. I would NEVER want Greens in power, but if they were there to provide some balance to National and to try and negoiate a greener tint to Nationals other policies, I wouldn't mind that. The problem I have is that they seem so against working WITH National (One thing that really impressed me last time around was Key taking co-operation to parties like Maori even when it wasn't required.

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#547978 21-Nov-2011 17:38

crackrdbycracku:
sleemanj:
networkn: I am a little worried about the greens. I actually for the first time think they have 1-2 compelling policies (education) however the stunt with the bill boards and Robyn Malcolms carry on

I don't think it is fair to tar a whole party by the actions of a few general party members. There are extremists in all the parties, usually they are kept under thumb by the party officials, but occasionally they slip out, just the nature of politics, and religion.

The last Green policy I heard of was:

100,000 'Green jobs' to do, well you know, Green Stuff.

This is not inspiring me with confidence.

Yes I entirely agree, this doesn't sound sensible. Unfortunately because they have never even been in with a fighting chance of leading, they lack the depth of the major parties for economic balance to their green policies.

oxnsox

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#547981 21-Nov-2011 17:40

Ahhh... but how reliable actually are the polls???

Asking a bunch of people who they'll vote for may be representative but if none of them actually get into a polling booth because they're too busy doing other stuff.....
I believe there's a lot of green support in the young voter demographic, and they're not always reliable voters.

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crackrdbycracku

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#547996 21-Nov-2011 17:55

networkn:
crackrdbycracku:
sleemanj:
networkn: I am a little worried about the greens. I actually for the first time think they have 1-2 compelling policies (education) however the stunt with the bill boards and Robyn Malcolms carry on

I don't think it is fair to tar a whole party by the actions of a few general party members. There are extremists in all the parties, usually they are kept under thumb by the party officials, but occasionally they slip out, just the nature of politics, and religion.

The last Green policy I heard of was:

100,000 'Green jobs' to do, well you know, Green Stuff.

This is not inspiring me with confidence.

Yes I entirely agree, this doesn't sound sensible. Unfortunately because they have never even been in with a fighting chance of leading, they lack the depth of the major parties for economic balance to their green policies.

I don't know as I'm not on the inside of the Green party but I think they are a missed opportunity.

They spent three terms being Labour's support. They didn't get a lot of environmental policy through. The major policy they got was anti-smacking, not sure how much carbon is emitted per smack but I don't think it is a lot.

John Key is the most keen advocate of a national cycle way there is. But, with the Greens basically saying 'We won't work with National' the only other option is Labour and Labour knows it. This work on a national cycle way would actually be an environmental policy win for the Greens but Labour isn't really interested.

Sadly, it shows that the Greens still have a lot of Red in them. And the environment looses as a result.

Maori politics was Labour politics for generations. But the Maori Party became relevant the day they said "We will work with the party that most brings the most to the table". I'm not saying I agree with race based politics, I don't, but that isn't the point.

This isn't completely off topic as it is MMP which has allowed this to actually be a part of our political process. Values got 5.2% of the national vote in the 1970's but no seats under FPP, the Greens would have similar results and lack of relevance today under FPP.

What MMP has done is broaden our political discourse from the traditional Left/Right, National/Labour, Red/Blue model under FPP. The views and electorate support of 'others', in this case Maori and environmentalist actually matter.

Would other alternative PR systems have done the same? Maybe. But MMP is now probably at the stage when the NZ electorate understand it enough that we can get what we actually want or close enough. Changing to another system would probably take us as long again to figure out.

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alasta

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#548001 21-Nov-2011 18:04

oxnsox: Ahhh... but how reliable actually are the polls???

Very unreliable in my view because I don't see how they can get a truly representative sample, and that is reflected in variations between the results of different polls.

A lot of people are starting to regard iPredict as being more accurate than the polls. I tend to agree.

John2010

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#548167 22-Nov-2011 00:25

alasta:
networkn: I am a little worried about the greens. I actually for the first time think they have 1-2 compelling policies (education) however the stunt with the bill boards and Robyn Malcolms carry on, leads me to believe they are still basically well educated (in the most part) activists.

Yes, they seem to have successfully re-branded themselves as a mainstream party but underneath the surface I think they're still pretty radical.

They seem to have a lot of big spending plans, but their voodoo economics doesn't bode well for increasing tax revenue. It does make me wonder if some voters are switching their support from Labour to National in order to keep the Greens out of government.

Greens generally, worldwide, are regarded as being far left as opposed to centre left - hence the name of "watermelons" being given to them (green on the outside but red on the inside).

The recent BrainScan survey 6,000 New Zealanders NZ is being analysed at Victoria University and shows that this is the case here in NZ as well. A summary of the first run can be found at http://www.victoria.ac.nz/psyc/attachments/wilson-2011-sst-descriptive-summary.pdf .

While not wanting to paint them all with the same brush your "radical" fits many from my own experience on projects and in my private life, but I will give the Green Party itself some credit in that they seem to be weeding the worst ones out of their top places in their list with another bunch having been waved goodbye to at the end of this current term.

networkn

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#548227 22-Nov-2011 08:35

John2010 : that also seems like a fair assessment.

talisker

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#549359 24-Nov-2011 12:38

I watched a DVD of "Hitler Moustache" last night, it's a stand-up show by english comedian Richard Herring. A great show btw, he actually grew a hitler moustache for the tour, supposedly to claim it back for comedy after Hitler stole it from Charlie Chaplin, and makes some great thought provoking points about racism etc.

He gets very passionate about people needing to use their vote, talking about the 2009 european parliament elections when the british national party (extreme right racist fascists) got 2 people elected for the first time. Their vote was pretty much the same as previous elections, but because voter turnout was particularly low overall, they got a large enough percentage to get two MPs.

So in other words, especially in an MMP environment, if you don't vote, you are effectively voting for the likes of Winston Peters. Your non-participation makes it more likely they will reach the 5% threshold.

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TheUngeek

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#554470 6-Dec-2011 14:33

And here is a prime example of the failings of MMP

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/6094532/Maori-Party-urged-to-wait-for-final-tally

""If National needs the Maori Party to form a government after the special votes are counted, they'd be in a position to call the shots and wield some real power," Sykes said. "

crackrdbycracku

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#554491 6-Dec-2011 14:59

TheUngeek: And here is a prime example of the failings of MMP

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/6094532/Maori-Party-urged-to-wait-for-final-tally

""If National needs the Maori Party to form a government after the special votes are counted, they'd be in a position to call the shots and wield some real power," Sykes said. "

I would say that is a failure of the media to help us understand what politicians say. Politicians have agendas and that's fine. Here the politician is trying to appeal to their supporters by saying 'Look, your vote counted, now we will hold the balance of power. Ha HA HA!'

The media is supposed to be there to help 'the public' understand it all, but they fail.

The Greens were in Coalition with Labour for how long? How many 'shots' did they call?

This whole 'minor parties holding the country to ransom' stuff has simply not been the New Zealand experience of MMP.

The Maori Party even softened their stance on Seabed and Foreshore while in coalition with National.

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sleemanj

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#554493 6-Dec-2011 15:08

TheUngeek: And here is a prime example of the failings of MMP

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/6094532/Maori-Party-urged-to-wait-for-final-tally

""If National needs the Maori Party to form a government after the special votes are counted, they'd be in a position to call the shots and wield some real power," Sykes said. "

IF a minor party get to "call shots" which are unacceptable to those who voted for the "major" party, it is not a failing of MMP, it is a failing of the major party for not representing the people who voted for them.

Nobody is sitting there with a gun to Key's head forcing him to make any deals that HIS voters don't want.

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networkn

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#554494 6-Dec-2011 15:10

sleemanj: actually that is pretty much exactly what is happening. IF they led alone do you think they would make some of the deals they are making now?

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