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networkn

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#93387 19-Nov-2011 23:12
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Hi There!

I profess to be struggling to understand what benefit some of the options in the referendum offer over say the main two contenders. I may be simplifying it too much but as I understand it the key two offer either the ability for the highest voted party to lead alone, which has a more simple control scheme and allows said govt to lead alone and not consult other parties for legislation. Upside, less politicking, downside, less debate. The other as we have it now, is the opposite, a lot more opinions get heard, more bargaining and compromise is had, but it takes longer and is harder to get any legislation completed due to the bargaining required to get coalition parties to vote your particular way.

With the exception of the FPP, all of them seem to be variations of MMP, and if we don't like MMP, why would you vote for any of the other options, since as I understand it the reason you wouldn't vote MMP is because you find the whole coalition situation is tiresome and boring and involves being held to ransom at each legislation presentation..

I don't want this to become a wild debate on general politics, but if someone could succinctly give a rundown on the basic differences of the other options and why they would be beneficial in the real world, it would really help me. 

Thanks very much!
 

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alexx
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  #547344 20-Nov-2011 04:05
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It sounds like you have already answered your own question.
Since you don't appear to like any of the aspects of proportional representation you shouldn't vote for those systems.




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networkn

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  #547381 20-Nov-2011 10:08
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Ok well I understand one type is proportional or not, but I don't understand why you would have additional options for proportional, in the real world what would one gain from PV or the others over MMP?

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  #547383 20-Nov-2011 11:00
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I assume you haven't yet visited the official www.referendum.org.nz website? If not I would suggest you visit there first.

And quite simply you either like proportional representation or you don't. If you don't FPP is your only option, if you do you will want to examine the different systems, all of which have verys significant differences.






catjones
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  #547388 20-Nov-2011 11:20
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I think FPP makes more sense. Easier for parties to win a majority, hence, easier for strong governments to emerge.


John2010
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  #547389 20-Nov-2011 11:25
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Apart from the mechanics of the voting and counting process which for some is actually pretty much beyond human dertermination (so the determination is by computer) I think the main differences are -

  - with Single Transferable Vote and Preferential Voting there are no list MP's. By way of example, this avoids the situation, such as with the Greens in the current parliament, where the party has no one of sufficient quality that any electorate wants them to be an electorate MP but who still get a fleet of MP's in parliament. Also because there are 120 seats there will be more than one ELECTED MP per electorate and so the minor parties can actually get members elected in.

- with Supplementary Member  there is a "list" but only 30 (MMP has 50) and the minor parties share of those is 30 x their percentage of the party vote (whereas with MMP their share is of all member numbers so 120 x their percentage of the party vote. This means that if a party gets 10% of the party vote they get 3 members into parliament whereas under MMP they would get 12 - so the influence of the smaller parties is lessened. This means, by way of example, that if Mana win Te Tai Tokerau that they would get an electorate seat as the people have determined they want the candidate to represent them but on current polling their percentage of the Party vote would not get them any list seats and so excludes the liklihood of their low quality list members getting into parliament. And assuming on the basis of current polling the Greens would get around 3 "list" members in and ACT maybe about 1.

Think I have those interpretations correct, no doubt someone will be along soon to agree or disagree. 

EDIT: should mention that, of course, MMP can be tinkered with to give similar outcomes to some of the above (e.g. no list members get in at all unless an electorate seat is won by the party). As I see it the main complication for voting for it in the referendum is there is no indication as to how it may be tinkered with should it be the preference arising out of the referendum.   

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  #547392 20-Nov-2011 11:35
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I persoanally view STV as being the best option if you believe in proportional representation.

alasta
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  #547395 20-Nov-2011 11:43
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Here is my personal take on it:

SM : A hybrid of MMP and FPP. I can see some merit in this one, but it's not truly proportional and as an advocate of proportional representation I would prefer MMP.

PV : Seems like it would achieve very similar outcomes to FPP, but with additional unnecessary complication.

STV : I don't really understand this one, and whilst most Geekzoners probably have the intellect to come to grips with it I would suspect that it would be too complicated for the typical voter.

So, I'm sticking with MMP and if I absolutely have to nominate an alternative system then I guess SM would be the next best option. 

 
 
 

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  #547403 20-Nov-2011 11:56
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alasta: STV : I don't really understand this one, and whilst most Geekzoners probably have the intellect to come to grips with it I would suspect that it would be too complicated for the typical voter. 



This is the fundamental problem with STV. It's use by local bodies such as Wellington for elections has meant many people have struggled to understand the concept of how it works, but IMHO the actual voting process isn't that difficult for people as they're merely ranking candidates in numerical order.

One of the differences in that the concept of list MP's doesn't exist. There is no ability for people to get into parliament in a non democratic way - if you're not voted in by the general public you don't get a seat.




Geese
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  #547408 20-Nov-2011 12:09
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alasta: Here is my personal take on it:

SM : A hybrid of MMP and FPP. I can see some merit in this one, but it's not truly proportional and as an advocate of proportional representation I would prefer MMP.

PV : Seems like it would achieve very similar outcomes to FPP, but with additional unnecessary complication.

STV : I don't really understand this one, and whilst most Geekzoners probably have the intellect to come to grips with it I would suspect that it would be too complicated for the typical voter.

So, I'm sticking with MMP and if I absolutely have to nominate an alternative system then I guess SM would be the next best option.?


100% agree with everything said here.

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  #547426 20-Nov-2011 13:22
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sbiddle: I persoanally view STV as being the best option if you believe in proportional representation.


+1 - IMO people think too hard on the mechanics behind it, rather than the fact that all they need to do on polling day is rank the candidates. It's that easy.


I do worry that the referendum is loaded in favor of FPP - as it splits the votes of the proportional options, against the one non-proportional (OK, it is loosely proportional - very loosely) option.

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  #547429 20-Nov-2011 13:31
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keewee01:
sbiddle: I persoanally view STV as being the best option if you believe in proportional representation.


+1 - IMO people think too hard on the mechanics behind it, rather than the fact that all they need to do on polling day is rank the candidates. It's that easy.


I do worry that the referendum is loaded in favor of FPP - as it splits the votes of the proportional options, against the one non-proportional (OK, it is loosely proportional - very loosely) option.


I also think the way the question can be answered is also strangely done.

There are two parts, A and B

You first tick if you want the system to change, and can then tick your preferred proportial representation option from the list.

If you tick that you want FPP, you can still tick your preferred proportional system.

It's a bit like asking somebody if they want fish or steak for dinner, and when they ask for fish then asking them if they prefer grain fed or grass fed beef.

keewee01
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  #547433 20-Nov-2011 13:54
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sbiddle:
keewee01:
sbiddle: I persoanally view STV as being the best option if you believe in proportional representation.


+1 - IMO people think too hard on the mechanics behind it, rather than the fact that all they need to do on polling day is rank the candidates. It's that easy.


I do worry that the referendum is loaded in favor of FPP - as it splits the votes of the proportional options, against the one non-proportional (OK, it is loosely proportional - very loosely) option.


I also think the way the question can be answered is also strangely done.

There are two parts, A and B

You first tick if you want the system to change, and can then tick your preferred proportial representation option from the list.

If you tick that you want FPP, you can still tick your preferred proportional system.

It's a bit like asking somebody if they want fish or steak for dinner, and when they ask for fish then asking them if they prefer grain fed or grass fed beef.


Laughing - indeed!!!

I'm not sure if it is just a poorly thought out referendum, or if it has been loaded on purpose! Whatever the result they get from it, it will be largely meaningless, IMO. (Unless the majority vote to keep MMP)

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  #547442 20-Nov-2011 14:09
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I just realised there is a typo in my post and no point in editing it since you've already quoted it!

I transposed MMP with FPP - the first question asks if you want to keep MMP, but the second allows you to pick a preferred voting system, even if you have chosen to keep MMP.


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  #547449 20-Nov-2011 14:54
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keewee01:
sbiddle: I persoanally view STV as being the best option if you believe in proportional representation.


+1 - IMO people think too hard on the mechanics behind it, rather than the fact that all they need to do on polling day is rank the candidates. It's that easy.


I understand where you guys are coming from in saying that, but I personally believe that analysis and commentary is a very important part of the democratic process and if people don't understand the methodology of the voting system then it makes it very difficult for people to engage with polls and commentators. 

It would also be very difficult if we ended up with a situation like what's happening in Epsom where people need to fully understand the nuts and bolts in order to determine the implications of their voting decisions. I know you'll probably come back and say that an Epsom type of situation would never happen under a 'better' voting system, but I would bet that noone anticipated this when MMP was first introduced. If we change to a different system now then we would probably be in for many more years of learning and tweaking.

John2010
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  #547459 20-Nov-2011 15:37
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As I understand it -

The second question (Part B) asks "If New Zealand were to change to another voting system, which voting system would you choose?" - so ones response to that is not related at all to how one answers Part A the intent of which is whether one wants to keep MMP or not.

So one gets the opportunity to vote as to whether one wants to keep MMP or not and then to vote for the separate matter of which would you choose (if any, because you don't have to answer both Parts if one doesn't want to) should it be that the result of the referendum is that the majority don't want MMP.

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