Which is more important - The TPPA or the Waitress?

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#1290831 24-Apr-2015 13:54

shk292:
Cynic: I just have a simple question for our politicians - if the TPPA is so great for new Zealand as they keep telling us it will be, then why the secrecy ?? Wouldn't they want to be taking credit (and scoring political points) ??

As for the waitress saga, if the allegations are true, then it smacks of yet more double standards in government - but why are we surprised, that's just BAU for this lot.

Because it's a negotiation. If you're negotiating, you don't give away your position and strategy at the start.

Great tactics for negotiation, less so for persuading the public that you're doing something that is good for them. Particularly when the results of negotiations are leaked and they sound disbeneficial to the NZ public (e.g. ISDS, higher cost medicines). I say this as someone who is not a dairy farmer, miner, multinational corporation or Auckland homeowner.

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#1290833 24-Apr-2015 13:57

deadlyllama:
shk292:
Cynic: I just have a simple question for our politicians - if the TPPA is so great for new Zealand as they keep telling us it will be, then why the secrecy ?? Wouldn't they want to be taking credit (and scoring political points) ??

As for the waitress saga, if the allegations are true, then it smacks of yet more double standards in government - but why are we surprised, that's just BAU for this lot.

Because it's a negotiation. If you're negotiating, you don't give away your position and strategy at the start.

Great tactics for negotiation, less so for persuading the public that you're doing something that is good for them. Particularly when the results of negotiations are leaked and they sound disbeneficial to the NZ public (e.g. ISDS, higher cost medicines). I say this as someone who is not a dairy farmer, miner, multinational corporation or Auckland homeowner.

'Negotiation tactic' doesn't hold water as a reason for the secrecy. The document drafts are secret from us. They are not secret from the negotiators - on either side. If the NZ negotiator says 'we want the document to say that we can sell you as much milk as we want' then I don't think having the Prime Minister crowing 'We will be able to export a lot more milk!' will give anything much away to the other side, will it?

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#1290854 24-Apr-2015 14:54

SaltyNZ:
'Negotiation tactic' doesn't hold water as a reason for the secrecy. The document drafts are secret from us. They are not secret from the negotiators - on either side. If the NZ negotiator says 'we want the document to say
that we can sell you as much milk as we want' then I don't think having the Prime Minister crowing 'We will be able to export a lot more milk!' will give anything much away to the other side, will it?

Well said. The chinese FTA which is arguably more beneficial to New Zealand was negotiated out in the open the European TTIP documents are published why cant we get the same from the TPPA?

oxnsox

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#1291011 24-Apr-2015 18:02

Personally I think it doesn't matter which primary policatical party is in the TPPA negotiating seat on behalf of NZ inc.... they'd all strive for what they think is the best outcome for NZ.

Here's why the TPPA is a good thing
NZ as a country are primarly food producers so we're making sure we can sell everything in the primary produce aisle that we can make. And selling it within the TPPA partners means we should get a better price than from those who apply tarrifs to our stuff (and have high distribution costs)

And internationally NZ inc is a bit player who could easily be bypassed for other emerging producer nations.

Here's why its not so good
The world and its governments are all about power and self. They're driven by the politics that are dictated by business, big business. ULtimately we (the populations) rely on businesses being good global citzens and employers and strong brands. They rely on profit.

For the last century or soo global trade has been dictated by production, whether it's oil or cars or pineapples, however I think we're moving into a era where IP wil become the leading source of global income.

The TPPA is really all about IP because that is increasing going to dictate the money trail into the future
Oil revenues whilst currently falling due to crude prices, are also falling in terms of Tax income due to increases in vehicle efficiencies. Ultimately they can only increase.
Similarly power prices are increasing as demand falls due to efficiency gains in simple tings like light bulbs, but also as consumers (and governments) demand more efficient products.
(The cost of solar solutions has always been downwards, in some places it is a better option than grid sources. Fossil fuel energy on the other hand has always increased>)

In NZ we probably don't focus on the IP side of the spreadsheet, we focus more on the tonnage of Milk powder and carrots, and use traditional linear models to predict market needs and growth.

IP is a non linear growth line. Physical things can now be built virtually anywhere, so the power, and the politics behind that are in controlling the IP

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#1291950 26-Apr-2015 21:31

rphenix:
SaltyNZ:
'Negotiation tactic' doesn't hold water as a reason for the secrecy. The document drafts are secret from us. They are not secret from the negotiators - on either side. If the NZ negotiator says 'we want the document to say
that we can sell you as much milk as we want' then I don't think having the Prime Minister crowing 'We will be able to export a lot more milk!' will give anything much away to the other side, will it?

Well said. The chinese FTA which is arguably more beneficial to New Zealand was negotiated out in the open the European TTIP documents are published why cant we get the same from the TPPA?

Because it's the USA, Ok yes it maybe a US govt person doing the negotiating but you can bet your bottom dollar it's Greed Corp US that's pushing the buttons and pulling the strings and dictating what will and wont be said and agreed to. And from what I've seen over the years the US govt only exists for basically one thing and that's pushing Greed Corps agenda onto the public

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#1304559 13-May-2015 14:55

A "fast-track" of the TPPA has been rejected by the US senate. It looks like we may have a couple of years of breathing room.

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#1304561 13-May-2015 15:00

Behodar: A "fast-track" of the TPPA has been rejected by the US senate. It looks like we may have a couple of years of breathing room.

Yep, the TPPA was going to be so overwhelmingly beneficial for the USA over us minions that they have deferred it for a few years. The sky isn't falling after all

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#1304607 13-May-2015 15:33

Interesting reads from today:

BTR

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#1305571 15-May-2015 08:26

TPPA = The Ponytail Pulling Adventure.

On a serious not the actual trans pacific partnership agreement is a lot more serious and have massive implications for us all. But like most political affairs the majority have their heads in the sand.

old3eyes

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#1305583 15-May-2015 08:57

BTR: TPPA = The Ponytail Pulling Adventure.

On a serious not the actual trans pacific partnership agreement is a lot more serious and have massive implications for us all. But like most political affairs the majority have their heads in the sand.

Yep they sure have. Most people seem more concerned as to whether Campbell Live will continue or not..

Regards,

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#1305604 15-May-2015 09:32

old3eyes: concerned as to whether Campbell Live will continue or not..

Wait wait wait -- Campbell Live might be cancelled!?

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turnin

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#1306353 16-May-2015 16:40

There needs to be some consistency, if we want to protect IP then we need to stop recording everyones email.
If encryption is the solution then it's a fairly short jump to suggest that those who might pose a security threat could also just use encryption.
But it's not the copyright or the abolition of creative commons that really worries me, it's the fact that NZ has to check with the US when it comes to legislation.
I'm not anti-american, I'm pro NZ and if that's a conflicting position then we have a real issue.
Anyone who is pro tppa AND has taken the time to digest the wikileaks leaks I have to seriously wonder about

frankv

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#1306373 16-May-2015 17:50

turnin: There needs to be some consistency, if we want to protect IP then we need to stop recording everyones email.
If encryption is the solution then it's a fairly short jump to suggest that those who might pose a security threat could also just use encryption.
But it's not the copyright or the abolition of creative commons that really worries me, it's the fact that NZ has to check with the US when it comes to legislation.
I'm not anti-american, I'm pro NZ and if that's a conflicting position then we have a real issue.
Anyone who is pro tppa AND has taken the time to digest the wikileaks leaks I have to seriously wonder about

It's not a matter of "checking", it's a matter of *complying*.

Personally, I think the whole IP thing has gone crazy. Every idea I have is based on the culture I'm in, including the ideas other people have published. The more we *share* ideas, the faster we progress.

Every time someone is inspired to create a new piece of music, they have to watch out for someone claiming it wasn't inspired by, it was copied from.

We can't improve our cars because the design belongs to the manufacturer? How does that concept not apply to every damn thing in our lives?

There's a whole industry around collecting money from people with photocopiers *in* *case* they're used to copy copyright items. Blank cassettes (remember cassettes) included a charge in case they were used to record copyrighted materials. How long before we pay through the nose for USB sticks and computers in case they're used to store/play copyrighted material?

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#1306379 16-May-2015 18:46

frankv:

There's a whole industry around collecting money from people with photocopiers *in* *case* they're used to copy copyright items. Blank cassettes (remember cassettes) included a charge in case they were used to record copyrighted materials. How long before we pay through the nose for USB sticks and computers in case they're used to store/play copyrighted material?

...Aaaaand that (is one reason) why people should care about the Kim Dotcom case. If he is convicted, how long do you think it will take before the Rights Holders are turning up at Dropbox, Google, <insert cloud provider here>, and saying 'Wow, lovely service you've got here. Just lovely. Hey, did you hear about that Kim Dotcom guy? Yeah, shame what happened to him. Be terrible if it happened to you. Tell you what: you pay us $100M a year and we'll make sure it doesn't happen to you too.'

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#1306386 16-May-2015 19:01

SaltyNZ:
frankv:

There's a whole industry around collecting money from people with photocopiers *in* *case* they're used to copy copyright items. Blank cassettes (remember cassettes) included a charge in case they were used to record copyrighted materials. How long before we pay through the nose for USB sticks and computers in case they're used to store/play copyrighted material?

...Aaaaand that (is one reason) why people should care about the Kim Dotcom case. If he is convicted, how long do you think it will take before the Rights Holders are turning up at Dropbox, Google, <insert cloud provider here>, and saying 'Wow, lovely service you've got here. Just lovely. Hey, did you hear about that Kim Dotcom guy? Yeah, shame what happened to him. Be terrible if it happened to you. Tell you what: you pay us $100M a year and we'll make sure it doesn't happen to you too.'

I don't think that will happen, DB, Google, Microsoft or IBM are not headed by crim's ;)

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